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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:10 pm to
Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
4692 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:10 pm to
quote:

quote:
It's high time Western Europe -who has the finances, population and technical expertise - footed the bill for their own defense.


This I agree with 100%.



I mean you aren't wrong

For FY 2021 defense spending as a percentage of GDP

Top Ten
Greece — 3.82%
United States — 3.52%
Croatia — 2.79%
United Kingdom — 2.29%
Estonia — 2.28%
Latvia — 2.27%
Poland — 2.10%
Lithuania — 2.03%
Romania — 2.02%
France — 2.01%

Bottom 10
Luxembourg - 0.57%
Spain - 1.02%
Belgium - 1.12%
Slovenia - 1.28%
Canada - 1.39%
Denmark & Italy - 1.41%
Czech Republic - 1.42%
Albania - 1.44%
Netherlands - 1.45%

LINK
Posted by AU86
Member since Aug 2009
26257 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:19 pm to
The Russians are liars and masters at propaganda. Hitler and Goebbels had nothing on this bunch.

Here is a direct quote from Goebbels diary:

He was commenting on Hitler's comments and his ambitions.

"Some day, the Fuhrer will make tabular rasa in Austria... He'll throw everything into it. This state is not a real state at all. Its people belong to us, and it will come to us...And the land of the Czechs is no state either. Some day it will be overrun as well."

Where have we heard such talk recently?
This post was edited on 6/20/22 at 12:20 pm
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42778 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:29 pm to
quote:

es: Russia-Ukraine Conflict by SoFla Tideroller
I'd like for the downvoters to give a detailed explanation for our continued presence in NATO.


I’d like to take these political questions to the political board.
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5180 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:36 pm to
I agree with the Western Europe should pull their weight for what began and for the time being remains a regional conflict most acutely affecting them, I’ve even said this in the past ITT. My thought goes immediately to:

quote:

For FY 2021 defense spending as a percentage of GDP

Top Ten
Greece — 3.82%
United States — 3.52%
Croatia — 2.79%
United Kingdom — 2.29%
Estonia — 2.28%
Latvia — 2.27%
Poland — 2.10%
Lithuania — 2.03%
Romania — 2.02%

France — 2.01%


Bolded will suffer the most and the most immediately for inaction over time and they’re the ones most understanding of the issue at hand, and to their credit seem to have been and are acting accordingly.

It’s the weakness of the French, Germans, and Italians that is most the problem, even with the French in the top 10. Where the hell is Belgium as the headquarters of both the EU and NATO? They’ve been overrun in both directions their whole history in wars.

It really comes down to if we value Eastern European security either for their sake or our own in the context of attempting to not repeat the Cold War, it’s really us and the UK going at it together with those countries.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28812 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 1:06 pm to
quote:

It's high time Western Europe -who has the finances, population and technical expertise - footed the bill for their own defense.
quote:

I'd like for the downvoters to give a detailed explanation for our continued presence in NATO.



I will approach it this way. The United States does not pay the military defense budgets of other NATO countries. Your premise is based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of the world.
This post was edited on 6/20/22 at 1:09 pm
Posted by adambomb
Member since Dec 2014
1463 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 1:22 pm to
It is in our interest to continue to 1) Be the world power and 2)Have open and uninterrupted access to all (high value) European markets, among many other benefits.

I was of the same opinion as you in 2016 when I voted for Trump, but at this point I've completely swapped. I hate many things European (specifically Western) nations do -- their immigration, their progressivism, all of that. But, I'd rather them all be under the US control than anyone elses. And, overall, I think our defense budget is too small under Biden anyway
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
45760 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 1:40 pm to
quote:

Russia wants to bomb NATO countries, no one can really stop them ummm we absolutely could. we absolutely would know they were going to do it and absolutely could take out the launch on the pad.


I believe he meant that nobody can stop Russia from making the decision to strike a NATO member. Nothing the west does would have that effect on Putin. However, we can stop the actual strike itself.
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
45760 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 1:45 pm to
quote:

Do the Ukrainian fighter jets have the capability if carrying any anti ship missiles? If they can’t position AA batteries on the island, does that open up additional offensive options for Ukraine?


The Mig29 and the Su27 have the ability to carry ASM missiles but Ukraine doesn’t have any ASM missiles that are able to be carried by the Mig29 or Su 27s.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
11915 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:09 pm to
Margarita Simonyan, chief of RT, delivering the message the Kremlin wants to keep Russian elites buying in at the moment - that the Russian blockade of Ukrainian food exports will cause a famine and prompt the West to capitulate.

LINK
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28812 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:11 pm to
quote:

I believe he meant that nobody can stop Russia from making the decision to strike a NATO member. Nothing the west does would have that effect on Putin. However, we can stop the actual strike itself.

You are correct. Russia will make whatever decisions it makes about additional military expansion. We can't control those decisions. They may be foolish, but we can't control them. So we shouldn't fashion our international and domestic policy under the fantasy that our decision making will determine Russia's next move.
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
16157 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:12 pm to
Part of the reason that the USA went after Iranian platforms in the Persian Gulf 1980's
This post was edited on 6/20/22 at 2:18 pm
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
16157 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:17 pm to
That's precious, Russia Today reporting anything
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28812 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:17 pm to
quote:

Margarita Simonyan, chief of RT, delivering the message the Kremlin wants to keep Russian elites buying in at the moment - that the Russian blockade of Ukrainian food exports will cause a famine and prompt the West to capitulate.

The Russians want a blockade of grain to intentionally cause famine, so that the West will capitulate to end the famine.

Are the Russians anyone's friend? Sounds like not.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
11915 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:26 pm to
Definitely not - the calculation they're making is that Western leaders will cave in order to win elections by controlling food prices (democracies generally being responsive to such things whereas autocracies are less so). Most of that grain would ordinarily be sold to countries with governments that are relatively friendly to Russia. Putin DNGAF.
Posted by DarthRebel
Tier Five is Alive
Member since Feb 2013
25945 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:28 pm to
So who is winning, since the media has moved on?
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5180 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:31 pm to
quote:

Margarita Simonyan, chief of RT, delivering the message the Kremlin wants to keep Russian elites buying in at the moment - that the Russian blockade of Ukrainian food exports will cause a famine and prompt the West to capitulate.


I think energy and food have always been part of the calculus. At a certain point the west may be faced with exactly this, easing sanctions or active participation in the war. Not advocating for either, just recognizing this is the future calculus unless something changes it. We’re seeing the energy effects now, but potentially more in the heat of the summer and cold of winter in Europe. The effects of grain are next, again if nothing changes.
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5180 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:33 pm to
quote:

Definitely not - the calculation they're making is that Western leaders will cave in order to win elections by controlling food prices (democracies generally being responsive to such things whereas autocracies are less so). Most of that grain would ordinarily be sold to countries with governments that are relatively friendly to Russia. Putin DNGAF.


Agree, but much like oil is a global commodity so if you’re removing significant amounts from the world market, it still creates shortages beyond those directly not receiving the grain in question.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
11915 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:47 pm to
Putin's counting on Western electorates to punish the governing parties/coalitions like they did in the French elections last night, but it remains to be seen who most Europeans will blame - hopefully Putin who deserves it.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
105508 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:50 pm to
quote:

The Polish Border Guard Service said that 6 #Belarusian soldiers tried to dig under the #Polish fence on the border.


I infer this as trying to escape rather than invade.

quote:

Over the past 24 hours, 21 people tried to illegally enter #Poland from #Belarus, including citizens of Morocco, Senegal and India.


This tells me rumors of Belarus entering the war are rampant and third country nationals are trying to GTFO while they can.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28812 posts
Posted on 6/20/22 at 2:51 pm to
quote:

Putin's counting on Western electorates to punish the governing parties/coalitions like they did in the French elections last night, but it remains to be seen who most Europeans will blame - hopefully Putin who deserves it.

A brief review of the right wing messaging on the PoliBoard shows that the conservative wing of American politics is all in on supporting Russia, to the point that the was an entire thread over the weekend where posters wrote how and why they would prefer Putin as the ruler of America.

I bring this up not to address the substance of the sentiments, just that there is a calculus on the right to make support for Russia or support for Ukraine a wedge issue in upcoming domestic elections.
This post was edited on 6/20/22 at 2:52 pm
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