re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

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Who said I didn’t support it?

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There is nothing sovereign about Ukraine.

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OK.

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If I am wrong, you can speak with facts. Being snarky solves nothing and offers no counter to anything I said.

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The fact is Ukrainians have been a separate people from Russians form the very beginning. When Ukraine finally had their independence after the fall of the Soviet Union, they specifically focused on becoming aligned with Europe as they see themselves as European and not Russian.

This is the historical perspective backed up by actual Ukrainians I talked to while in Ukraine.

Is that snarkless enough for you? When you post shite like this:

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When the Soviet Union failed, Ukraine became a state propped up by the West

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I tend to respond with snark because it shows a deep ignorance of the Ukrainian people and their history.

An article that discusses how Russia is asking the mothers of sailors who perished on the Moskova to agree that their sons were killed in an accident.

I really dislike the way Russia is manipulating the truth about their fallen soldiers. I think long term that is going to cause some issues internally.

https://theins.ru/en/news/251526

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The mother of conscript Muhammed Murtazaev, who had served on the Moskva cruiser, was asked to sign documents stating her son died as a result of an accident, Novaya Gazeta Europe reports.

We were told that my son was on the list of the missing servicemen. At the same time this information was not provided in writing. We also sent a request to the Military Commissariat of the Republic of Crimea and received an answer on April 29: «I notify you with regret that your son Murtazaev Muhammed Serverovich, who had been conscripted into military service, went missing as a result of an accident on the ,GMC guards missile cruiser, Moskva in the high seas on April 13, 2022, the woman said. She added that «at a meeting with the command, the relatives were told that the cruiser was in neutral waters and did not participate in hostilities

The mother of another killed conscript told the journalists that as she was trying to understand whether her son was considered dead or missing, she also received notices from the military registration and enlistment office which said: «We regret to inform you that your son is missing as a result of an accident.» The woman was asked to sign under the notices.

They invite me to sign this statement and say there are witnesses who saw my son on the cruiser that day, but no one saw him disappear. I don't have it in my hands, I didn't even come to get it, I said I wouldn't sign anything. Still they call me and say that three families have already signed such a statement, come over and write a statement too, so that you can go straight to court, without dragging it out for too long. They didn't even ask me if I was ready to sign such a statement saying I voluntarily agree that my son was killed... Not even killed. It says dead as a result of an accident and does not specify he participated in the operation, she said.

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So the West didn’t prop up Ukraine when the USSR failed? Because they most certainly did.

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They most certainly did not. Feel free to detail exactly how they were "propped up".

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Ukraine should have been in NATO from day 1.

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No, they should not have. Because they were promised, by written agreement from Russia, that they would, like all other former satellite states, be allowed to pursue their own agendas. At that time they were more focused on integration with Europe and not joining NATO. Ukraine was taking the pragmatic approach to move towards the European influence they wanted without antagonizing Russia in a spirit of good faith to those agreements.

Putin broke that agreement when he invaded in 2014. All else that has followed flows from that.

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If they where, do you think there would be a war today?

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Moot point, as in the beginning NATO, and Europe, respected Russia's agreement of self determination....so it wasn't for them to bring Ukraine in to NATO unless they requested it. And Ukraine did not, again, out of spirit of honoring the agreement with Russia.

Again, that all changed in 2014.

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You know who’s fault it is for “trusting” Russia? Ukraine and the West. Period.

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No disagreement here. And it's why we're seeing the response from the west we are. Russia needs to be punished for shitting on all their agreements, one Javelin at a time.

I've always thought Ukraine giving up their nukes was stupid, considering how Russia has treated Ukraine over the last hundred years or so.

That doesn't change the fact the west did not prop up Ukraine. The west let Ukraine chart their own path, and Putin took advantage of the west's good faith. And he's paying for it now.

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That doesn't change the fact the west did not prop up Ukraine. The west let Ukraine chart their own path, and Putin took advantage of the west's good faith. And he's paying for it now.

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Then I guess we can agree to disagree with the UK and US signing the Budapest Memorandum and that it was no big deal.

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We signed it, like Russia did. We followed it until Russia broke it. I fail to see your point?

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As I said previously, how can you consider one a sovereign state without securing security?

When Ukraine agreed to de-nuke and work with the West it was always a matter of time to either A: fully secure security or B: face Russian aggression.

I dont know in what world anyone would be shocked that scummy commies turn out to be scummy commies.

As I said, Ukraine played half in half out and we are all surprised?

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But they didn't. They played "Russia will honor their agreements, so we will honor ours". The only one that played half out is Russia.

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Like I said, we can just agree to disagree. The writing was all over the wall for what we have today.

Saying, "we trusted Russia" isn't a defense.

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Saying, "we trusted Russia" isn't a defense.

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It is if you're going to be consistent in your global politics and not be backstabbing bitch like Russia.

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Its not backstabbing to ensure Ukraine was actually capable of securing itself. You can have strength as a deterrent without every invading or firing a shot.

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We did for almost twenty years.