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re: How insane were Douglas McArthur and Curtis LeMay?
Posted on 10/12/18 at 11:13 am to Ace Midnight
Posted on 10/12/18 at 11:13 am to Ace Midnight
And as far as historically the biggest mistake made during WWII, that honor belongs to Hitler. 20/20 says he should have declared war on JAPAN the day after Pearl Harbor, hung those little Jap bastards out to dry and kept the US out of the European war.
He may have defeated the Soviets if we hadn't engaged his western front.
He may have defeated the Soviets if we hadn't engaged his western front.
0
Posted on 10/12/18 at 11:16 am to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
Second, I propose another, probably more realistic one: that tens of millions would not have died in Mao’s Great Leap Forward and Cultural Wars has we obliterated part of their country along the Yalu and de-stabilized their regime.
It is easy to say this but the reality of the situation is that war in China would have taken years and the human cost would have been sky high.
The Soviet Union could have easily gotten involved.
Also, the public support for a war like this would have been very low so soon after WWII.
Posted on 10/12/18 at 11:24 am to soccerfüt
quote:
Obviously his judgement of MacArthur might be tinged with a personal aspect but he considers that the General deserted his post on Corregidor.
MacArthur was ORDERED to flee. The United States needed him to prosecute the war.
Posted on 10/12/18 at 11:34 am to GetCocky11
Who says that we would have had to send ground soldiers north of the Yalu and gotten involved in a ground war there? It would have been a defensive action.
Posted on 10/12/18 at 11:49 am to Draconian Sanctions
quote:Another gem:
LeMay’s protege Thomas Power was also a piece of work..."Why are you so concerned with saving their lives? The whole idea is to kill the bastards … At the end of the war, if there are two Americans and one Russian, we win."
quote:
Having been briefed by another famous member of the RAND Corporation, Herman Kahn, on the genetic effects of nuclear weapons, Power replied: "You know, it's not yet been proved to me that two heads aren't better than one."
Posted on 10/12/18 at 12:24 pm to SM6
quote:
No way we would have been able to do this. We were counting on the USSR participating in the land invasion of Japan.
The exact opposite. We didn't want any Soviet involvement in the Pacific so they couldn't make any post-war claims there.
Posted on 10/12/18 at 12:53 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:Did this happen? No? Oh.
You think the death of, conservatively, 80 million Americans is awesome?
Posted on 10/12/18 at 1:49 pm to ChewyDante
We had nukes in 1945 and they didn't.
Posted on 10/12/18 at 2:19 pm to Parmen
quote:
We had nukes in 1945 and they didn't.
How many?
Posted on 10/12/18 at 2:42 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
How many?
we had zero nukes actually.
We did have two atomic weapons though. Good thing the Japs didn't know we didn't have a third one
Posted on 10/12/18 at 2:45 pm to Draconian Sanctions
These were battled hardened generals. In their mind, if you have a particular weapon that gives you an edge, then you should use it. In their minds if you tell your enemy that there is a certain weapon you will not use, then you are not in a war that you want to win.
Posted on 10/12/18 at 3:07 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
I would’ve rather the Nazis and Soviets go on killing each other without our throwing in there. More dead Nazis and more dead Communists. What’s not to love?
Win/Win.
Except you're looking at a Europe completely conquered by USSR. By "throwing in" we ensured the freedom of 1/2 of Europe thereby creating trade partners for our economy to boom in the post war era.
Posted on 10/12/18 at 3:15 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
At the end of the war, if there are two Americans and one Russian, we win."
That's so badass, yet, so fricked up.
ETA
quote:
They come from a time when American lives meant more than anyone else
The first quote pretty much sums it up he didn't care about American lives at all. Just win baby win seems to be his motto.
This post was edited on 10/12/18 at 3:18 pm
Posted on 10/12/18 at 9:07 pm to KiwiHead
quote:
hese were battled hardened generals. In their mind, if you have a particular weapon that gives you an edge, then you should use it. In their minds if you tell your enemy that there is a certain weapon you will not use, then you are not in a war that you want to win.
This is critical when examining MacArthur’s approach as well.
This is a man who had been in a successful combat commander (arguably THE most successful) role for the two deadliest conflicts in human history both to that point and ever.
You’re fricking right that a man with that background will want to end the war as swiftly and cruelly as possible. He had witnessed first-hand just how awful the grind of front line war had been in WWI and WWII, and he correctly thought it folly not to utilize a game-changing weapon at his disposal when presented yet another grinding conflict.
He was right and prescient in his approach, and most forget the second half of his warning: either get in a war you intend to win with all means possible OR don’t get in at all. William Manchester - a Pacific soldier under MacArthur island hopping in WWII and no man to suck up to anyone - made this same very point.
For the record, I think MacArthur undermining Presidential authority was immoral and abhorrently corrosive to the republic, but he was strategically correct pretty much every step of the way.
Posted on 10/12/18 at 9:13 pm to KiwiHead
quote:
These were battled hardened generals. In their mind, if you have a particular weapon that gives you an edge, then you should use it. In their minds if you tell your enemy that there is a certain weapon you will not use, then you are not in a war that you want to win.
Yeah, it's easy to judge in 2018 when the world is such an easy place to survive, compared to men who went through some absolute hell during their day. War had a nuclear different meaning 70 years ago
Posted on 10/12/18 at 9:49 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
"War is the continuation of politics by other means."
-Clausewitz
I know my Clausewitz and Heinlein both.
Posted on 10/13/18 at 11:40 am to SM6
quote:
Remember, the Allies decided to win the war in Europe first then focus on Japan. The U.S. was able to win the Pacific essentially single handed, but capitulation due to the atomic bomb was never a given.
Japan was done and negotiating surrender before we ever dropped the bombs
Posted on 10/13/18 at 11:46 am to Draconian Sanctions
believe you mean trumpkins not bumpkins.
Posted on 10/13/18 at 12:21 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
Draconian Sanctions
They were real man, unlike your soy Austin arse.
Posted on 10/13/18 at 12:34 pm to Draconian Sanctions
MacArthur was a legend in his own mind. Overrated. I don’t know enough about LeMay other than he was eager to invade Cuba during the crisis.
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