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re: History Channel's 'Grant' Is a Timely Reminder of Which General Actually Won the Civil War

Posted on 5/26/20 at 1:08 pm to
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 1:08 pm to
quote:

Grant was a top tier general but it should always be remembered that he had the superior numbers in literally every aspect. Lee’s biggest failure was his own belief that he was such a superior tactician that he could overcome.. He did against many inferior generals but once the tide turned at Gettysburg and the introduction of Grant after Vicksburg he should have turned to guerrilla warfare tactics.



It's been regarded and said many times by Union and Confederate generals how level headed and humble Lee actually was. He definitely didn't show that at Gettysburg but overall he was. I don't think arrogance got in his way, in the overall war. Lee's tactics are still widely studied today by Americans and other countries. Ya'll are looking at the final outcome and Monday morning QBing everything he did, you and RollTide.

People forget the awful weaponry the Confederates had, the rifles, the cannons were mostly useless, they just simply weren't able to make them like the Union could. Lack of navy, many times food, and there times where only around 3/4 of the soldiers even had a gun, and the ones that did, didn't have much ammo (powder).

Grant made great use of his tools, what people respect about Lee is the same, he made great use with what he had. The Union was increasing in numbers of troops by Gettysburg, they had weapons that could fire multiple rounds (approximately that time), way better cannons, etc by that time. I agree Lee's biggest mistake was Gettysburg, I've said all along the South's biggest chance was staying defensive. His own general's words Lee was a defensive mastermind, but offensive leaves something to be desired.

The Civil War is much more than just Lee had this many men, and Grant or whoever had this many, and this was the final outcome. You have to look into the details, as I said above. In a 4 year war, there are questionable decisions by everyone, even if that may have been the best decision to make, but it still failed. Lee's troops were at a major disadvantage, not only from lack of clothes, food, medical care, appropriate guns, but more importantly, their numbers were getting smaller while the Union's was getting bigger.

I joke on here about Grant, but I thought he was a good general, he made the best use with what he had. He had many more advantages and he took full advantage of that. LSU should be able to beat La Tech every time, that's what's expected. There's nothing wrong with that, Grant did what he was supposed to do, beat the South. People are fascinated with Lee more with a David vs Goliath type feel. He kept the South with a chance, no other general would have been able to do that, at least in mine and most people's opinions.

ETA: I wanna add, I'm glad the North won, maybe not as a kid. I'm simply glad I'm an American, and all that ended when it did. A couple of ya'll try and bash every thing said about Lee or other southern generals and it just looks silly. There's nothing wrong with someone complimenting Lee, Grant, or whoever. Historians and modern military experts have complimented Lee for over 100 years, I don't understand why a couple of ya'll get irritated about it. I've never seen so much Monday morning QB like I do in these threads Both generals were great, as were others from both sides during the War.
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 1:19 pm
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71735 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 1:51 pm to
quote:

Ya'll are looking at the final outcome and Monday morning QBing everything he did, you and RollTide.


That's what historians do, guy. Their job is to research events, look at the data which was available to the commanders at the time, and try to extrapolate whether or not a better decision could be made. Lee was by no means a perfect commander. He had his flaws and those flaws reared their heads on numerous occasions, not just at Gettysburg. Grant, too, had his flaws but no one seems to care when they are laid out for the world to see. Only when Lee is called into question do people rush to talk about Monday morning QBing.

For the first 50-75 years after the conflict, Lee was largely protected from criticism because historians who wrote about the conflict were by and large from the South. The fact of the matter is, it wasn't just a lack of manpower and poor weaponry that doomed the Confederacy. There were also poor decisions made in the moment by commanding generals (Lee being among them) that helped quicken its demise. Lee was a solid commander but it must be noted that Grant and Meade were the only two competent generals he faced off against during the war. They also happened to be the only ones who could defeat him.



This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 1:55 pm
Posted by TigerFanInSouthland
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
28065 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 1:56 pm to
quote:

The South could have never won a quick victory. The key for the South was to prolong the conflict long enough to where the people of the North eventually would grow tired of the bloodshed. They came very close to achieving that aim on more than one occasion.


The south didn’t have the manpower to make that work, that would never work and it’s precisely why the confederacy went north.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
43088 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:05 pm to
quote:


I mean...that's exactly what he did try to do. He kept on getting around Lee's right flank in an attempt to get between Lee and Richmond. The plan was to get Lee into the open on ground of the Union's choosing. Lee had a smaller, lighter, and faster army. So he was able to outrace Grant to places like Spotsylvania Court House, the North Anna River and Cold Harbor.


So Lee out maneuvered Grant? He couldn’t do what Hooker did.
Grant couldn’t do what he did to Pemberton. Grant saw he was up against a top general and he decided to go right after him with his superior numbers and supplies and not quit.

Lee would have been routed at Antietam and in Chancellorsville is the union leadership had just used the advantages gained by their generalship to finish the job.

Grant generally took all his natural advantages of superior numbers and the big advantage Meade had provided st Gettysburg to grind Lee down. The generalship he showed versus Pemberton in Miss. didn’t work versus Lee. Grants desire to punish his enemies with relentless pressure did.
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:07 pm to
quote:

That's what historians do, guy.


Ok guy I understand. I have a degree in history.
quote:

Lee was by no means a perfect commander.


Of course not, none of them were, from the north and the south. It’s like someone bashing a coach that punts on 4th and 20 but it was a bad punt, that’s all you do anytime someone says something positive about Lee, but someone says something negative about Grant you rush in and tell them all the reasons they are wrong.

quote:

For the first 50-75 years after the conflict, Lee was largely protected from criticism because historians who wrote about the conflict were by and large from the South


People were writing positives of Lee from both sides well past that

quote:

Only when Lee is called into question do people rush to talk about Monday morning QBing.


Apparently that’s what historians do

This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 2:08 pm
Posted by el Gaucho
He/They
Member since Dec 2010
60232 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:08 pm to
Really sad that they’d start a war that killed millions of Americans all so gay people could get married
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:13 pm to
quote:

Lee was a solid commander


He’s considered one of the most respected commanders in history, even now, in a day where that’s considered racist and bad to even bring up his name.
Posted by PsychTiger
Member since Jul 2004
110757 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:14 pm to
quote:

That this
quote:
it's easy to forget that he commanded the losing side in the Civil War.


and this

quote:
Grant was the actual winner in that war, and he went on to serve as presiden


are somehow "lost" facts that no one remembers anymore.


I blame those evil statues that keep making people think the South won, in addition to all the killing they do of course.
Posted by TROLA
BATON ROUGE
Member since Apr 2004
14987 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:20 pm to
quote:

People forget the awful weaponry the Confederates had, the rifles, the cannons were mostly useless, they just simply weren't able to make them like the Union could. Lack of navy, many times food, and there times where only around 3/4 of the soldiers even had a gun, and the ones that did, didn't have much ammo (powder).


Lee was a great general but you just listed why he lost without recognizing that it was ultimately up to him as the leader to adjust. After Gettysburg, they should have never engaged in a full battle again but his belief in his tactical knowledge doomed him.. he went for the North throwing in the towel and suing for peace route...it failed and then you have to adjust and realize the reality of numbers
Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:25 pm to
quote:

Lee was a great general but you just listed why he lost without recognizing that it was ultimately up to him as the leader to adjust. After Gettysburg, they should have never engaged in a full battle again but his belief in his tactical knowledge doomed him.


I agree with all that. I’m mostly talking about the posters who make an argument against every good thing Lee or Stonewall or whoever did. Saying they were “decent” or top 15 generals etc. no doubt mistakes were made. Now those mistakes may have been the best decisions or maybe not at the time, who knows, we weren’t there during the planning.

If someone hates Lee or Grant b/c of the side they fought for they should just admit it. But when some posters come on here and go against what 90% of civil war historians, military historians, and writers have said for over 100 years, they just look silly.
Posted by SeeeeK
some where
Member since Sep 2012
30769 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:29 pm to
Grant rubbed both balls on Lee's fore head. Then gave him a roman soldiers helmet
Posted by oleheat
Sportsman's Paradise
Member since Mar 2007
14872 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:42 pm to
quote:

Grant rubbed both balls on Lee's fore head. Then gave him a roman soldiers helmet



So you're saying Grant was a millennial?
Posted by Tmcgin
BATON ROUGE
Member since Jun 2010
6557 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:50 pm to
quote:

He was a drunk


sorry still butt hurt on the loss

South had 6m free people, agrarian economy
North Had 20m and an industrial base

"The south was on a fools errand. The North won that with one hand tied behind it's back" Historian Shelby Foote

Way too many commercials in this documentary its like a 2:30 CBS game
Posted by ZappBrannigan
Member since Jun 2015
7692 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:06 pm to
It also helped that Lee was having heart attacks right before and during Gettysburg. That doesn't excuse most of his performance. But piled on to everything that went wrong for his invasion attempt it was the cherry on top.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71735 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:53 pm to
quote:

Grant couldn’t do what he did to Pemberton. Grant saw he was up against a top general and he decided to go right after him with his superior numbers and supplies and not quit.


You mean maneuver him into a siege where his only two options would be eventual surrender or a miracle? That's kinda what Grant did to Lee after Cold Harbor. The move around Lee's right, getting the army south of the James River, and into Petersburg was checkmate. It took a little longer to force Lee to surrender but Grant effectively did to Lee what he did to Pemberton.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
43088 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 4:57 pm to
quote:


Lee was a great general but you just listed why he lost without recognizing that it was ultimately up to him as the leader to adjust. After Gettysburg, they should have never engaged in a full battle again but his belief in his tactical knowledge doomed him.. he went for the North throwing in the towel and suing for peace route...it failed and then you have to adjust and realize the reality of numbers

The war wasn’t just fought on the battle field. It was also fought in the home front where civilian life in the South was eroding away. Throwing the other theaters in the mix made things even worse for Lee.

At the same time Lee invaded Pa., Vicksburg was surrounded and ready to fall. Playing defense works just for so long, but with the opposition in your rear view mirror and food and other supplies a major issue; you just can’t sit still and waste away guarding Richmond and the rest of Va. That’s a losing play. A Guerilla war gets you where? Nowhere. The North was mobilized to burn down everything.

Lee took his shot. It certainly wasn’t his best shot, Stuart saw to that when he and Lee lost contact with each other and Meade surprised him with a decisive move to counter his invasion.
Things only got worse the longer he stayed in Gettysburg,
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 5:06 pm
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
43088 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 5:13 pm to
quote:


You mean maneuver him into a siege where his only two options would be eventual surrender or a miracle? That's kinda what Grant did to Lee after Cold Harbor. The move around Lee's right, getting the army south of the James River, and into Petersburg was checkmate. It took a little longer to force Lee to surrender but Grant effectively did to Lee what he did to Pemberton.

Grant lost at Cold Harbor, but he could afford to lose 2-1 as long as Lee was losing 1. He wore Lee down, both numbers wise and supplies wise. Lee had little left in the tank.

Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71735 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 5:19 pm to
quote:

Grant lost at Cold Harbor


And as a result he changed tactics. He maneuvered Lee into a no-win situation by getting his forces south of the James and into Petersburg. He did to Lee what he did to Pemberton. And he also did what no other general before him could do: seize the initiative from Lee and keep it away from him.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71735 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 5:22 pm to
quote:

but someone says something negative about Grant you rush in and tell them all the reasons they are wrong.


Mainly because most of the negative things said about him in these threads revolve around two long disproven myths: he was a drunk and a butcher.

Posted by windshieldman
Member since Nov 2012
12818 posts
Posted on 5/26/20 at 5:33 pm to
quote:

Playing defense works just for so long, but with the opposition in your rear view mirror and food and other supplies a major issue; you just can’t sit still and waste away guarding Richmond and the rest of Va. That’s a losing play. A Guerilla war gets you where? Nowhere. The North was mobilized to burn down everything.


This is actually a good argument against my thinking of what they should have done. I keep saying Confederates should have stayed defensive, in reality, they just would have been starved out, the soldiers and civilians. A small example of that is Vicksburg. The soldiers were literally starving, Grant did the smart thing after some unsuccessful attempts, waited them out.
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 5:34 pm
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