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re: History Channel's 'Grant' Is a Timely Reminder of Which General Actually Won the Civil War
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:04 pm to RollTide1987
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:04 pm to RollTide1987
Bin Laden was a successful general on 9/11.
1
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:09 pm to McLemore
quote:
Bin Laden was a successful general on 9/11.
All he did was finance it. It was Khalid Sheikh Mohammad's plan and Mohammad Atta, the lead hijacker, was in charge of the "tactical" picture here in the States.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:09 pm to RollTide1987
Lee might be the most overrated general in history. Name a comparable general who - in his prime.- ordered something as stupid as Pickett's Charge. And Grant is the butcher? 
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:13 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
All he did was finance it. It was Khalid Sheikh Mohammad's plan and Mohammad Atta, the lead hijacker, was in charge of the "tactical" picture here in the States.
Ha. Fair enough. Nice pivot.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:14 pm to crazy4lsu
Actually 13 months, but at high losses.
First confrontation was at the battle of the Wilderness.
123,000 Union troops versus 60-65 thousand Rebels.
That was in early May of 1864. It took 11 months with all the advantages Grant had to finally defeat Lee. A 2-1 advantage in men, a huge advantage in arms, good, you name it ; yet Lee held on.
First confrontation was at the battle of the Wilderness.
123,000 Union troops versus 60-65 thousand Rebels.
That was in early May of 1864. It took 11 months with all the advantages Grant had to finally defeat Lee. A 2-1 advantage in men, a huge advantage in arms, good, you name it ; yet Lee held on.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:21 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
His tactical work is underrated too, as his frontal charge at Missionary Ridge was predicated on weakening Bragg’s flanks. His Vicksburg Campaign was nothing short of brilliant as well, and gets little attention in the mainstream.
Yes, both great examples of great generalship.
Can you site any examples of great tactical wins he had versus Lee even though he had a huge edge?
It would seem he could have easily out maneuvered Lee with his superior numbers just as he had done to the Rebs in Miss.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:27 pm to Cold Drink
quote:
Name a comparable general who - in his prime.- ordered something as stupid as Pickett's Charge.
Every general in the British, French, and German armies for most of the First World War and definitely during the major battles on the western front between the Marne and the spring offensives in 1918.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:28 pm to Cold Drink
quote:
Lee might be the most overrated general in history. Name a comparable general who - in his prime.- ordered something as stupid as Pickett's Charge. And Grant is the butcher?
Rommel
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:31 pm to doubleb
Love these discussions.
1. The myths
Grant wasn’t a habitual drunk. The origin of the myth that’s rooted in truth was that he turned to alcohol while he was stationed in San Francisco because he missed his family.
Grant wasn’t a butcher. Did he understand attrition, absolutely, did Lee’s casualty rates exceed Grant’s, absolutely.
2. Lee & Grant
To understand the men you have to understand their mentors.
For Lee it was Winfield Scott. Scott’s decisive strategy was the battle of annihilation or a Cannae. This proved over and over again in Lee’s battles. From his own letters to Davis, Lee believed the only way to attain foreign intervention was to annihilate a field army.
For Grant it was Zachary Taylor. Taylor’s strategy was a broad scope of total war. This included secure supply lines, communications and psychological warfare. Grant understood the overall picture.
The Southern Mystique Movement did a lot after the war to shape public opinion of the abs created the glorious cause.
It even culminated with the Motion Picture Gone with the Wind.
1. The myths
Grant wasn’t a habitual drunk. The origin of the myth that’s rooted in truth was that he turned to alcohol while he was stationed in San Francisco because he missed his family.
Grant wasn’t a butcher. Did he understand attrition, absolutely, did Lee’s casualty rates exceed Grant’s, absolutely.
2. Lee & Grant
To understand the men you have to understand their mentors.
For Lee it was Winfield Scott. Scott’s decisive strategy was the battle of annihilation or a Cannae. This proved over and over again in Lee’s battles. From his own letters to Davis, Lee believed the only way to attain foreign intervention was to annihilate a field army.
For Grant it was Zachary Taylor. Taylor’s strategy was a broad scope of total war. This included secure supply lines, communications and psychological warfare. Grant understood the overall picture.
The Southern Mystique Movement did a lot after the war to shape public opinion of the abs created the glorious cause.
It even culminated with the Motion Picture Gone with the Wind.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:32 pm to OrangeEmpire
Lee enjoys his own myths of a master strategist. Outside of regaining already lost territory, what is exactly legendary?
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:34 pm to OrangeEmpire
quote:
Outside of regaining already lost territory, what is exactly legendary?
Fighting a prolonged war against an army with superior numbers and logistics and achieving multiple major victories while doing so.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:39 pm to RollTide1987
Reverse the situation and Lee pushes his shite in in a few weeks
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:39 pm to Centinel
Prolonging a war and getting a win and a draw against Little Mac. Then throwing in defeating Pope, Burnside and Hooker is legendary?
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:40 pm to Strannix
Grant didn’t allow Lee to maneuver. The war was over at the South Anna in the East.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:41 pm to doubleb
quote:
Actually 13 months, but at high losses.
Not really. Estimates put total casualties for Grant during the Overland Campaign at 54,000, with 7,000 troops killed, and 38k wounded. Lee’s losses are estimated to be between 30k and 35k for that specific campaign, which represented the majority of his fighting force, while Grant’s losses represented more than a third of his losses. Over the course of the war, Lee incurred 210k casualties, while Grant incurred 154k, in three separate theaters and while he was the attacking force in most of those engagements.
quote:
It took 11 months with all the advantages Grant had to finally defeat Lee. A 2-1 advantage in men, a huge advantage in arms, good, you name it ; yet Lee held on
It took Grant that long (which is not very long at all) due to a couple of things. First he always sought to capture an enemy force intact. In addition, he was attempting to maneuver Lee into an untenable defensive position. By crossing the James River in June, he had Lee in the weakened position, and the 8 months or so of fighting around Richmond and Petersburg also gave time for other Union armies to isolate the Confederates and deny it the ability to feed its armies, as Sheridan did in the Shenandoah Valley and to break the will of the populace at large, as Sherman did in Georgia. Grant also understood that the best way to get Lee into a decisive battle was to isolate him and his men, and that is what the sum of the other campaigns in the Eastern Theater did.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:42 pm to OrangeEmpire
quote:
Prolonging a war and getting a win and a draw against Little Mac. Then throwing in defeating Pope, Burnside and Hooker is legendary?
Listen, I get it. You apparently have a hardon for hating Lee for some odd reason.
But nothing you just said refutes the point I made.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:44 pm to Centinel
Not in the slightest, were arguing the myths surrounding each man.
Lee was a capable commander but he’s not legendary,
Lee was a capable commander but he’s not legendary,
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:46 pm to OrangeEmpire
Lee’s true brilliance is at the end of the war and contributing to reunification of the country.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:47 pm to OrangeEmpire
quote:
Lee was a capable commander but he’s not legendary,
What he did, for how long he did it, with what he had, against what he faced, says otherwise.
It's not just the battles won/lost...it's the context in which he did it.
Posted on 5/21/20 at 5:59 pm to gaetti15
Pretty sure grant killed a lady after drinking and driving in a horse drawn carriage
—-wrong century and transportation
You’re thinking of Ted Kennedy
—-wrong century and transportation
You’re thinking of Ted Kennedy
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