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re: Have door-to-door proselytizers ever had any success?
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:04 pm to LeonPhelps
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:04 pm to LeonPhelps
quote:
Well that's just weird and unnatural. Our ancient ancestors hundreds of thousands of years ago survived because they were suspicious of their neighbor and then passed on those genes to us. The ones that welcomed strangers with open arms were the ones killed for their food and women.
What are you basing this supposed ancient history on?
Even in the ancient Greek/Roman pagan religions, hospitality was extremely important. Denying hospitality to someone who showed up at your door was reason for the gods to smite you.
2
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:09 pm to LeonPhelps
I have a great relationship with the Mormons. I enjoy talking to them.
Don't agree with much of their doctrine, but we still have great discussions.
The thing that bothers me about Jehovah's Witnesses is their doctrine which would allow a child to die for lack of a blood transfusion. I really don't understand that practice.
Don't agree with much of their doctrine, but we still have great discussions.
The thing that bothers me about Jehovah's Witnesses is their doctrine which would allow a child to die for lack of a blood transfusion. I really don't understand that practice.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:10 pm to LeonPhelps
quote:
The ones that welcomed strangers with open arms were the ones killed for their food and women.
I don't think you get this whole Christianity thing.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:11 pm to LeonPhelps
My head is still connected to my body,
so I guess the Muslim group failed.
so I guess the Muslim group failed.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:22 pm to efrad
quote:
Even in the ancient Greek/Roman pagan religions, hospitality was extremely important. Denying hospitality to someone who showed up at your door was reason for the gods to smite you.
Most scholars believe lack of hospitality was what brought about the destruction of Sodam.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:23 pm to beejon
quote:
The thing that bothers me about Jehovah's Witnesses is their doctrine which would allow a child to die for lack of a blood transfusion
If that child was already in the hospital or in the ER...doctors could get a court order to give that child a transfusion if the child were to die without it. Recently had a patient on our floor with this exact scenario. Mother went ahead and consented..but didn't want us to tell any of her family about it.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:33 pm to lsunurse
quote:
The thing that bothers me about Jehovah's Witnesses is their doctrine which would allow a child to die for lack of a blood transfusion
quote:
If that child was already in the hospital or in the ER...doctors could get a court order to give that child a transfusion if the child were to die without it. Recently had a patient on our floor with this exact scenario. Mother went ahead and consented..but didn't want us to tell any of her family about it.
One more bit of concern is that JWs seem to always come up with "new light" to adjust their beliefs...coincidentally this new light often shows up after a given prophecy has failed or the pressure to change doctrine becomes overwhelming. JWs have already become agreeable to using certain components of blood because of sudden changes in doctrine. Many lives could have been spared from what is allowable now. How do the families of those lost souls feel about these new revelations? I am sure the transfusion stance could eventually fall too. The flimsy nature of concocted and contrived doctrine that could change on a whim makes it difficult to abide by and respect when innocent lives are on the line.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:33 pm to chRxis
Come.to my door and.you will get the business end....
Posted on 1/18/15 at 9:08 pm to Crimson1st
quote:
Crimson 1st
Not to be rude, but quite honestly do not have a clue as to what you're talking about. I actually researched this, and the New World Translation was voted as the most accurately translated Bible available. This was at a conferance of bible scholars and translators in Arizona. Besides, the identity of those who translated it was never revealed, because their aim was not to seek self prominence, but rather to get the most accurate translation possible. One other thing, what do they have to gain from printing millions of bibles and giving them away for free to anyone who would like one? Converts you say? Why? They don't charge for their services, they don't pass a collection plate, so it is DEFINITELY not about the money. The truth, that you don't want to even consider, is that they take their time, that they could be using to do something else, and knock on people's doors, because it is a work of love, to find any who want to see better conditions on the earth, as the Bible promises will soon come. But have no fear, they can show it to you in your King James version too. You have been severely misled by info that is in no way shape or form correct. If you really want to know, go to the source, not blindly believe what someone else tells you about people that they despise. They have shown me things that I never knew, and it was in my Bible, not theirs. You can't argue with fact, but you can be close minded. That choice is yours.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 9:20 pm to efrad
quote:
What are you basing this supposed ancient history on?
Even in the ancient Greek/Roman pagan religions, hospitality was extremely important. Denying hospitality to someone who showed up at your door was reason for the gods to smite you.
I'm talking about our really ancient ancestors - before we were even homo sapiens. Look at apes now, which display behavior we probably mimicked 1 million years ago. They don't accept strangers that are males. They just chase them off or kill them. That male is usually looking to take over the group. The apes that are trusting and don't fend off the strangers get killed and usurped. That is what I am basing this off of.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 9:24 pm to Firewind
Crimson,
One more thing, the Witnesses have helped transform the landscape of bloodless medicine, which has incredible benefits, that many many doctorshave recognized as safer and more practical than than blood transfusions. As a matter of fact, the US govt just paid 4 million for the bloodless program to be taught to military medical doctors. Many hospitals around the world have also become leading centers of bloodless medicine. You can thank Jehovah's Witnesses for this, because, while their stance on blood transfusions is religious and not a matter of danger from tainted blood, their stance on wanting quality healthcare without compromising their faith has led to huge medical advancements that are both pratical and cost effective. It is obvious that you are speaking from what you think, and in no way from actual fact. As I mentioned, I have done in depth research on these subjects, and have no reason to lie or tell half truths. You have either had some negative experiences with Witnesses or are speaking from what someone has told you and is heresay. Either way, you obviously don't have the facts, and you really should refrain from making comments as fact that are really your opinion.
One more thing, the Witnesses have helped transform the landscape of bloodless medicine, which has incredible benefits, that many many doctorshave recognized as safer and more practical than than blood transfusions. As a matter of fact, the US govt just paid 4 million for the bloodless program to be taught to military medical doctors. Many hospitals around the world have also become leading centers of bloodless medicine. You can thank Jehovah's Witnesses for this, because, while their stance on blood transfusions is religious and not a matter of danger from tainted blood, their stance on wanting quality healthcare without compromising their faith has led to huge medical advancements that are both pratical and cost effective. It is obvious that you are speaking from what you think, and in no way from actual fact. As I mentioned, I have done in depth research on these subjects, and have no reason to lie or tell half truths. You have either had some negative experiences with Witnesses or are speaking from what someone has told you and is heresay. Either way, you obviously don't have the facts, and you really should refrain from making comments as fact that are really your opinion.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 9:45 pm to Firewind
quote:
Not to be rude
It's not rude to passionately discuss things
quote:
but quite honestly do not have a clue as to what you're talking about
No, you are mistaken by this statement however. I am rather educated on the subject.
quote:
New World Translation was voted as the most accurately translated Bible available
This is just hard to even comment on...
quote:
This was at a conferance of bible scholars and translators in Arizona
Now if you said this was a conference in Colorado, I might believe you due to some recent laws that were passed...
quote:
they don't pass a collection plate
They don't have to pass one around. When the Sword of Damocles hangs over you constantly, you have plenty of willing donors.
quote:
they can show it to you in your King James version too
They can show me some proof texts that have been cherry picked then twisted, at times torturously, to attempt to justify their doctrine before I come back at them with reams of contextually, consistently, and customarily(at time of authorization) sound direct references and cross references that would disprove their attempt to show me things in any legitimate translation that would prove any of their core doctrine.
See, JWs are well trained. I will grant them that. They are well versed in how they approach things. Many people who are not familiar with the group to the extent I am might fall for their presentation. I would have been easier prey at some point in time years ago, but not now.
quote:
as the Bible promises will soon come.
Are you speaking of the same Biblical prophesy Watchtower spoke of coming soon in 1914, 1925, and 1975 just to name a few?
quote:
not blindly believe what someone else tells you
Oh, trust me this can't be further from the truth. So while I am debating this, can I ask you are you telling me my statement earlier is false that Nathan Knorr, Fred Franz, Milton Henschel, George Gangas, and Albert Schroeder were not the translators of the NWT? Can you disprove the court transcripts from the 1954 trial in Glasgow, Scotland where Mr. Franz lied under oath when it was determined he could not translate a simple text in Hebrew? Please bring some specifics to dispute me rather than claiming I am blindly quoting some simple minded haters...
Posted on 1/18/15 at 9:48 pm to Firewind
I really enjoy the JW's because we hit it off really good talking about Jehova God. It keeps cranking right up.... especially when we get to the Book of Revelation. They soak that up.
Until we get to 2:8. Whoops!
(BTW, don't want to poke too much fun at the JW's. Every JW I have ever known has been literally the nicest and most honest people I ever met.)
Until we get to 2:8. Whoops!
(BTW, don't want to poke too much fun at the JW's. Every JW I have ever known has been literally the nicest and most honest people I ever met.)
Posted on 1/18/15 at 10:18 pm to Meauxjeaux
Crimson, really? Believing anything from Ray Franz, and his book, Crisis of Conscience, tells me all I need to know about your "expertise" concerning the Witnesses. You may think you are informed, but you are not. Ray Franz was a power hungry person who left this organization after his position was not elevated to what he thought it should be. While he gave the names of those individuals mentioned, there were, in fact, others who were involved in the translation process. In no way does this diminish the accolades that the New World Translation has received from unbiased 3rd party individuals and scholars. You base your facts on the writings of a disgruntled individual. Again, you seek out every avenue about how to disprove these folks, except going the source. It is obvious that you harbor some kind of resentment toward the Witnesses, and are biased toward them, especially if you base your facts on Ray Franz's writings and views.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 10:20 pm to Firewind
Crimson, one more thing, you are an Alabama fan, so that explains a lot. 
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:05 am to Firewind
quote:
Crimson, one more thing, you are an Alabama fan, so that explains a lot.
I am a bit late on finding your replies and will give you a more thorough reply tomorrow but my Bama allegiance is actually a good signal of profound intellectual prowess...
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:14 am to Firewind
quote:
One more thing, the Witnesses have helped transform the landscape of bloodless medicine, which has incredible benefits, that many many doctorshave recognized as safer and more practical than than blood transfusions. As a matter of fact, the US govt just paid 4 million for the bloodless program to be taught to military medical doctors. Many hospitals around the world have also become leading centers of bloodless medicine. You can thank Jehovah's Witnesses for this, because, while their stance on blood transfusions is religious and not a matter of danger from tainted blood, their stance on wanting quality healthcare without compromising their faith has led to huge medical advancements that are both pratical and cost effective. It is obvious that you are speaking from what you think, and in no way from actual fact. As I mentioned, I have done in depth research on these subjects, and have no reason to lie or tell half truths. You have either had some negative experiences with Witnesses or are speaking from what someone has told you and is heresay.
Typical JW propaganda. JWs have not transformed the landscape of bloodless medicine. Blood transfusions have saved millions and millions of lives over the decades and continue to save lives. Without blood transfusions during surgery, the death rate would be astronomically higher. There's a reason blood transfusions are an integral part of surgery.....it's beneficial. If it were not, it wouldn't be used.
quote:
Either way, you obviously don't have the facts, and you really should refrain from making comments as fact that are really your opinion.
The fact is, children died when they could have lived because of the JW practice of no blood transfusion.
We haven't even discussed the breakup of the family unit by the JW practice of shunning.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:40 am to Firewind
Now that I think about it, I want to address a few points in your most recent lengthy reply. First the only resentment I have is directed towards misinformation. That said, I couldn't care less about who made the claim regarding the translators, if they were pegged, they were pegged. Yes, I also know others were consulted such as ex-Catholic spiritist Johannes Grebers.
Anyway, even you had to admit that those I named were integral to the translation, but I suppose you can give me some of the combined educational pedigree of those who came up with the translation. I also would like to know more about this group from Arizona that gave the NWT such props.
Furthermore, my knowledge and understanding of the subject goes well beyond the NWT issues. I have already mentioned several dates where false prophecies occurred. I can provide plenty more...anyway, let's break it down.
If a person/entity stated they were God's sole distributor of truth, then subsequently made numerous false prophecies as to the return of Christ, the return of prophets, etc...would you consider that person/entity a false prophet?
Anyway, even you had to admit that those I named were integral to the translation, but I suppose you can give me some of the combined educational pedigree of those who came up with the translation. I also would like to know more about this group from Arizona that gave the NWT such props.
Furthermore, my knowledge and understanding of the subject goes well beyond the NWT issues. I have already mentioned several dates where false prophecies occurred. I can provide plenty more...anyway, let's break it down.
If a person/entity stated they were God's sole distributor of truth, then subsequently made numerous false prophecies as to the return of Christ, the return of prophets, etc...would you consider that person/entity a false prophet?
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:53 am to beejon
quote:
Blood transfusions have saved millions and millions of lives over the decades and continue to save lives. Without blood transfusions during surgery, the death rate would be astronomically higher. There's a reason blood transfusions are an integral part of surgery.....it's beneficial. If it were not, it wouldn't be used.
Exactly. There are certain medical situations where a person HAS TO HAVE A BLOOD TRANSFUSION or they would die. Sure they could try alternatives to honor the person's beliefs...but many times those only just help the person die slower.
This post was edited on 1/19/15 at 12:54 am
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:55 am to LeonPhelps
quote:
I did not realize it was a Christian's duty to enjoy being bothered in the sanctitude of his home. I was very polite to them but inside I was roiling in irritation. I would say I did exactly what a Christian was supposed to do. I was kind and polite despite wanting to be the exact opposite of that.
That's what you get for letting them in. You have no obligation to let these people in your house or listen to their pitch.
If you say its because you are a nice guy, or you were raised a certain way, then fine, live with it and don't complain about it. Otherwise, tell them to F off next time- that's what I do.
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