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re: German auto club finds that EV charging wastes 13% of electricity used on average
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:22 am to Box Geauxrilla
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:22 am to Box Geauxrilla
Lawmakers won’t listen to us unless we are waving money under their nose.
Liz Cheney just got told to GTFO of Wyoming and never come back. Her response has been to start putting unused campaign money into talking about how stupid and worthless the GOP is for not supporting her.
If they see something as a lever for power, they will head that direction no matter what We The People say on the matter.
Liz Cheney just got told to GTFO of Wyoming and never come back. Her response has been to start putting unused campaign money into talking about how stupid and worthless the GOP is for not supporting her.
If they see something as a lever for power, they will head that direction no matter what We The People say on the matter.
0
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:24 am to weagle99
quote:You quoted in your OP where they compared charge efficiency to gasoline. You even bolded that part. Someone else does it and it's "apples and bowling balls"?quote:Apples and bowling balls Tony.
So...you can choose losing 13% charging in an EV, or 40-60% in heat and friction loss with an ICE.
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:27 am to Korkstand
quote:
You quoted in your OP where they compared charge efficiency to gasoline. You even bolded that part. Someone else does it and it's "apples and bowling balls"?
“Look at the facts… wait not those facts”
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:27 am to LegendInMyMind
This is one of those no shite Sherlock moments. Anyone that doesn't immediately realize there are going to be efficiency losses in the inversion of AC to DC for charging isn't really equipped for an efficiency discussion. The same thing with the heat coming off a charging battery, that is lost energy.
The key when making an argument about efficiency is approaching it from say a BTU to forward movement of a vehicle. Because ICE engines are so terribly inefficient (roughly 20% for a road-going car, slightly higher for engines with turbos) even when considering generation, transmission, charging, and electric motor efficiency EVs still are more efficient than turning a BTU into forward progress.
There are plenty of arguments about the shortcomings of EVs as well as ICE vehicles but one of the ones EVs completely win on is efficient use of the initial fuel.
The key when making an argument about efficiency is approaching it from say a BTU to forward movement of a vehicle. Because ICE engines are so terribly inefficient (roughly 20% for a road-going car, slightly higher for engines with turbos) even when considering generation, transmission, charging, and electric motor efficiency EVs still are more efficient than turning a BTU into forward progress.
There are plenty of arguments about the shortcomings of EVs as well as ICE vehicles but one of the ones EVs completely win on is efficient use of the initial fuel.
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:30 am to Mingo Was His NameO
quote:
This boards obsession with hoping EV's fail is weird. I have no interest in an EV at this point, but I also couldn't care less what my vehicle uses for energy as long as it gets me where I want to go.
Nah, people are just tired of being told that, not only are these cars ready to take over right now, but it's a moral imperative to do so. Hell, Korkstand will still tell us that our current grid can handle a majority EV fleet while we have rolling blackouts/brownouts in major metro areas when it hits 95 degrees.
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:31 am to upgrayedd
quote:
Nah, people are just tired of being told that, not only are these cars ready to take over right now
Wasn't aware everyone on this board lives in California
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:32 am to Mingo Was His NameO
When Ford, Chevy, and so forth are shitcanning a lot of their ICE line for electric versions, it has an effect no matter where you live in the country.
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:34 am to Korkstand
quote:
You quoted in your OP where they compared charge efficiency to gasoline. You even bolded that part. Someone else does it and it's "apples and bowling balls"?
Efficiency during charging / refueling is not the same as efficiency during operation.
Seems to me that apples to apples would be how much fuel is lost during the refueling process compared to how much electricity is wasted during charging
This post was edited on 8/23/22 at 11:37 am
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:36 am to Obtuse1
quote:
but one of the ones EVs completely win on is efficient use of the initial fuel.
Well, it depends on how you define initial fuel for an EV.
How far back up the electrical grid should be counted in that number?
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:40 am to weagle99
What percentage of gasoline is made up of additives?
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:41 am to upgrayedd
quote:The vast majority of the grid can easily handle a majority EV fleet. The parts of the grid that cannot currently handle it also cannot handle high temps as you've pointed out. They need upgrades regardless. One way to upgrade the grid is to put a bunch of batteries on it. Tesla is proving this with their virtual power plant tests. EVs can serve as those grid batteries if done right.
Hell, Korkstand will still tell us that our current grid can handle a majority EV fleet while we have rolling blackouts/brownouts in major metro areas when it hits 95 degrees.
You're really not going to win the "the grid can't handle it" or "we can't upgrade the grid fast enough" type of arguments. We upgraded the grid at a far faster rate in the 90s with all the computers firing up than will be necessary to handle the EV load. EVs mostly charge at night when there is ample excess capacity.
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:41 am to kciDAtaE
10% of most gas these days is ethanol.
Don’t know what other additives are used.
Don’t know what other additives are used.
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:43 am to weagle99
quote:It doesn't matter what subsection of well-to-wheel efficiency you want to look at, EVs win them all.
Efficiency during charging / refueling is not the same as efficiency during operation.
quote:Seems to me that you're a fricking dumbass.
Seems to me that apples to apples would be how much fuel is lost during the refueling process compared to how much electricity is wasted during charging
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:43 am to Korkstand
quote:most overlooked part of EV deployment. There’s a reason Tesla has filed an application to be a utility company.
Tesla is proving this with their virtual power plant tests. EVs can serve as those grid batteries if done right.
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:44 am to weagle99
quote:We can start at a gallon of fuel if you want. Burning it in a generator to charge an EV will drive it further than burning it directly in an ICE. This is why hybrids exist. Then as we go further up the grid things only get more efficient for the EV.
Well, it depends on how you define initial fuel for an EV.
How far back up the electrical grid should be counted in that number?
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:50 am to Korkstand
quote:
Seems to me that you're a fricking dumbass.
Ah, I always thought we disagreed on this topic but remained somewhat cordial. Figured you were better than the quote above.
This post was edited on 8/23/22 at 11:50 am
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:50 am to Korkstand
quote:
The vast majority of the grid can easily handle a majority EV fleet.
Link?
quote:
EVs mostly charge at night when there is ample excess capacity.
Link to an independent study with numbers backing this up?
Link to an independent study backing any of your claims?
This post was edited on 8/23/22 at 11:54 am
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:51 am to weagle99
no shite, electric vehicles arent green.
Im not saying do away with them, but just know you arent saving anything by getting one.
Im not saying do away with them, but just know you arent saving anything by getting one.
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:51 am to weagle99
quote:
Well, it depends on how you define initial fuel for an EV.
How far back up the electrical grid should be counted in that number?
I am going back to 100% O&G products for firing the power plant and it is still more efficient. That is the key to making a non-caveat laden argument. The second you use any other initial fuel you get the but but argument.
Using the links pouring gas on the ground analogy the reality is you are in the same vein poring 100oz of each gallon of gas going into an ICE car on the ground due to their very low thermal efficiency because most of it is going to just be turned into heat that does not produce any power at the crank. You simply have to take the time to understand both systems before you can compare them.
EVs are simply more efficient at turning rotted dinosaur bones* into forward momentum than ICE cars, that is a done an dusted argument.
* mainly algae but it isn't as evocative
Posted on 8/23/22 at 11:51 am to weagle99
I was under the impression that charger losses were already included in vehicle efficiency ratings. Could be wrong.
But anyone who's been paying any attention to EVs for the past decade is familiar with charger losses. It is discussed ad nauseum on EV specific sites, and you can find advice on how to measure your losses from the plug. Here's a study posted in Energy way back in 2017: Charger Losses
But anyone who's been paying any attention to EVs for the past decade is familiar with charger losses. It is discussed ad nauseum on EV specific sites, and you can find advice on how to measure your losses from the plug. Here's a study posted in Energy way back in 2017: Charger Losses
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