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re: Engineering firm to examine 20 steel connections at new downtown library
Posted on 6/13/18 at 1:55 pm to Hammertime
Posted on 6/13/18 at 1:55 pm to Hammertime
quote:
So they contracted for $17.5k to do the entire investigation, and then the city wants to pay them more? It seems like the city would've included "check all that shite out" in the original contract
What part of outside the original scope are you not getting? You still in school?
1
Posted on 6/13/18 at 1:57 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
17.5k will get you about 175 hours of engineering services on average.
Yeah for the most junior engineering intern, I'm sure on a clusterfrick of this complexity you have senior engineers billing at way over 100/hr, and also are paying a premium since they are having to go over someone else's failing design, plus the liability of having to deal with a failing building.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 1:59 pm to Duckhammer_77
That really depends. Delegated design connections usually require submittals with the connection engineer's seal.
If the connections are not detailed by the SEOR, why would they be liable?
If the connections are not detailed by the SEOR, why would they be liable?
Posted on 6/13/18 at 1:59 pm to Adam4848
What f...ing boondoggle.
We HAD a downtown library in the exact same spot that no one used except jurors and bums looking for a spot to piss & sleep on we tore down to build a brand a brand new one that no one was gonna use anyway except for the same bums and occasional jurors.
Now we have one that no one, not even the bums will feel safe to piss on...
We HAD a downtown library in the exact same spot that no one used except jurors and bums looking for a spot to piss & sleep on we tore down to build a brand a brand new one that no one was gonna use anyway except for the same bums and occasional jurors.
Now we have one that no one, not even the bums will feel safe to piss on...
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:01 pm to fightin tigers
quote:
I think we are seeing a new way to funnel money to supporters.
In California? Is this like a Soros thing?
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:08 pm to meltingman
quote:
why would they be liable?
chain of contracts and torts back to Owner
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:13 pm to Hammertime
quote:
Fill me in, but there is already a structural engineering firm hired, for $17,500, to investigate what happened, and the city now wants to pay them more?
That doesn't buy you much. If you're billing out at an average of $100 a hour, that's just over a man-month. The $100 an hour engineer will NOT be the engineer doing this kind of analysis. That number's probably going to pushing between $150-$200 an hour just for the senior engineer's time, not to mention company overhead, profit, insurance, etc.
So, let's say that $17.5k gets you two weeks. This is going to take WAY more than two weeks. That first price was probably the price to come in and put together the front-end package to identify what needs further study, which is the expensive part.
In shite like this, you don't just walk in and start getting your engineer on. Everything must be carefully and methodically planned every step of the way because this report might as well be titled "Exhibit A in the soon-to-be-filed massive lawsuit". The structural engineer that performs the analysis could be opening himself up to some possible legal exposure (civil, not criminal) if anything at all in his report can be deemed malpractice or negligence. That's unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility and is why they carry E&O insurance.
It's going to take a while for the engineer to cross the i's and dot the t's, and it's going to be expensive.
This post was edited on 6/13/18 at 2:24 pm
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:13 pm to Golfer
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:21 pm to NYNolaguy1
Specialized work, probably less, more like 100-120 hours of work.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:26 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
17.5k will get you about 175 hours of engineering services on average.
Maybe 175 hours of drafting.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:32 pm to meltingman
quote:
It is common practice for steel connection design to be delegated to the steel fabricator with forces or reactions provided by the engineer of record.
This is true, but the EOR better have calculations for those connections which are stamped by a PE representing the fabricator or he/she will still be responsible. The EOR will still be responsible for the accuracy of the joint forces.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:44 pm to BigLSUNut
word on the street is the structural EOR in Houston F'ed up and missed something in his calcs...that's coming from my source on the project team at Buquet Leblanc.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:46 pm to Duckhammer_77
quote:
word on the street is the structural EOR in Houston F'ed up and missed something in his calcs...that's coming from my source on the project team at Buquet Leblanc.
There may be just a slight amount of bias in the word you're hearing.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:49 pm to Boudreaux35
quote:
Maybe 175 hours of drafting.
Yeah, I can assure you there will be a lot of "senior engineer" hours on this review and you're probably looking at about $135/hr minimum there. Hell, some firms start around $115 for a stamp that was picked up from Rebel Stamp last month.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 2:53 pm to Jester
quote:
bias
LOL, yeah.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 3:10 pm to Hammertime
quote:
and the city now wants to pay them more?
I just like to show up in these Library threads to point out that I said in the original thread that the taxpayers were going to end up holding the bag on this deal.
Now is the time when everyone posts how lawsuits and insurance is going to cover all these costs.
And I respond, just wait and see. The taxpayers are going to get fricked when it is all said and done.*
*Meaning fricked more than we are already getting screwed by building a massive library we didn't need in the first place.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 3:21 pm to TigerstuckinMS
Golfer cleared everything up about the different contracts and money moving so fast
quote:
$17,500 is the maximum contract amount that does not need MC approval. So to get this started, the company agreed to begin the work under the $17.5k contract and wait for approval on the remaining amount.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 3:37 pm to TigerstuckinMS
quote:
That doesn't buy you much. If you're billing out at an average of $100 a hour, that's just over a man-month. The $100 an hour engineer will NOT be the engineer doing this kind of analysis. That number's probably going to pushing between $150-$200 an hour just for the senior engineer's time, not to mention company overhead, profit, insurance, etc.
So, let's say that $17.5k gets you two weeks. This is going to take WAY more than two weeks. That first price was probably the price to come in and put together the front-end package to identify what needs further study, which is the expensive part.
In shite like this, you don't just walk in and start getting your engineer on. Everything must be carefully and methodically planned every step of the way because this report might as well be titled "Exhibit A in the soon-to-be-filed massive lawsuit". The structural engineer that performs the analysis could be opening himself up to some possible legal exposure (civil, not criminal) if anything at all in his report can be deemed malpractice or negligence. That's unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility and is why they carry E&O insurance.
It's going to take a while for the engineer to cross the i's and dot the t's, and it's going to be expensive.
yep. the actual repairs are not going to be that hard. Now whoever does it will charge a premium because they know they can. But engineering is going to be very costly. I assume a full staad model will have to be made and a full analysis run based on the changes to the connections they are examining. Now if they find something like faulty materials or craftsmanship.....well the SE won't stamp shite until he sees every connection nor should he.
In the end the SE has his arse on the line. He is the one that could end up in jail should something happen and its determined it was gross negligence. Same with the Project Manager on the job.
None of these people are cheap, nor are they going to put their arse on the line until they are sure.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 3:42 pm to jbgleason
quote:
I just like to show up in these Library threads to point out that I said in the original thread that the taxpayers were going to end up holding the bag on this deal.
Now is the time when everyone posts how lawsuits and insurance is going to cover all these costs.
I mean, I know you're enjoying your atoadasos, but that's exactly what will happen. Whoever is found at fault will be liable for the costs incurred due to it, which will include these engineering reports. Now, that liability may be passed on to their insurance carrier, but that's beside the point.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 3:45 pm to lsu777
quote:
yep. the actual repairs are not going to be that hard.
There is no way to know that right now. If the design is deemed insufficient, the fix may be quite complicated. You can't just go toss up another beam. That's not how loading works.
Best case scenario is a construction defect that can be repaired.
quote:
Now whoever does it will charge a premium because they know they can.
Thankfully the city will not be on the hook for that.
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