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re: Do you think the Allies would have won WWII if Russia has sided with Germany?
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:05 pm to celltech1981
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:05 pm to celltech1981
It would have been a much bigger war if Germany hasn't invaded Russia, as hard as that is to phathom. Every sovereign country in the world would have been drawn in, on a much larger scale. The US didn't have a fully-developed atomic weapon until 1945, so the war would have been unimaginable, with hundreds-of-million dead. I think Germany would have conquered Britain by 1942, but a coalition of resistance movements would have made it impossible for them to fully conquer the them. War with Russia was inevitable; Hitler just tried to get the jump on them. Russia would have sided with the allies with the fall of Britain. Europe just wasn't big enough for Hitler and Stalin. Stalin proved that he was willing to throw meat into the German grinder until it clogged. He has the bodies, but not the resources. The allies would have realized the crisis on hand and would have written a blank check. With the US leading, the Allies would have still won, but we're talking 5 million casualties for our country. The atomic bomb could have possibly been ready by 1944, which would be game over. Japan is a different story... I think China would give hell and make a long-term occupation not worth the trouble. Japan's weakness was resources. If the Allies cut off their supply chain and vamp up atomic production, game over.
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Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:08 pm to celltech1981
The USSR was going to strike Germany if Germany didn't strike first. Stalin got screwed when France caved in so quickly otherwise he would have grabbed most of Europe while Germany was tied up in the West and before the US entered the war.
No scenario would have had Germany and the USSR actually being compatible.
.
No scenario would have had Germany and the USSR actually being compatible.
.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:09 pm to cascadia
quote:
Weren't the Japs wrecking the pacific up until their blunders at Midway? Idk much about the Atlantic but the little I've read about the Pacific was it was all Japs.
This is true. The Japanese snafu at Midway decimated their naval powers so much that they were never again able to mount a good naval defense/offense. That is why when the US invaded Okinawa we saw the Japanese use Kamikaze tactics to try to destroy the US fleet.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:09 pm to celltech1981
Once we got the bomb the war would have ended, no matter what stage Europe was in.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:12 pm to gumbo2176
quote:
If Russia and Germany teamed up, it would have been almost impossible to beat that combination on the European front with the US being an ocean away. And to those talking about nuclear weapons------they weren't being massed produced and took a long time to put together back then, so the losses of military personnel between bombs would likely have been the turning point to seeking some type peace treaty, on the Allies part.
Yeah, Europe would have fallen completely before we could have done anything about it.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:12 pm to ELVIS U
quote:
Once we got the bomb the war would have ended, no matter what stage Europe was in.
There is no guarantee there would have still been a war by the time we got the bomb.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:14 pm to celltech1981
Nonsensical question. The whole purpose of WWII from the German perspective was eastern expansion into areas controlled by the Soviet Union. War with Britain and France, and by extension the US, was simply a means of securing Germany's western flank. No war with Russia, no WWII.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:15 pm to brmark70816
quote:
If the US gets in the war, its over. We got the bomb first. Nobody could top that. Nuke Berlin and the war is over..
Remember...the Russians were working on atomic weapons, too. Would their work with German Physicists have propelled them ahead of the US in developing the bomb? Even though they got a little later start than us...it was the war with Germany that really slowed down Russian development of the atomic weapon.
This post was edited on 7/25/18 at 2:15 pm
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:18 pm to oleheat
quote:
I do
In reality the bomb was used as a fear weapon (not a tactical one) against a tactically defeated enemy in Japan.
Would that have worked against a much stronger Germany?
Also, you have the possibility that a stronger Germany develops their own nukes.
I am not convinced nukes alone would have defeated Germany.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:19 pm to celltech1981
Taking nukes off the table...
If Russia sat out I think we would have eventually prevailed in Europe but it would have been a lot tougher. An extra half-million (up to possibly 2 million, depending on some sources) is a frickton of extra troops to have to take on.
If Russia had joined I think Germany would still hold Europe today. It's not really a question of arms or tactics nearly as much as it is raw numbers. Russian estimates of their military losses in WW2 run from 8-9 million. That much extra fodder would have made just getting a toehold into Europe tough (depending on when Russia joined in).
If Russia sat out I think we would have eventually prevailed in Europe but it would have been a lot tougher. An extra half-million (up to possibly 2 million, depending on some sources) is a frickton of extra troops to have to take on.
If Russia had joined I think Germany would still hold Europe today. It's not really a question of arms or tactics nearly as much as it is raw numbers. Russian estimates of their military losses in WW2 run from 8-9 million. That much extra fodder would have made just getting a toehold into Europe tough (depending on when Russia joined in).
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:21 pm to cascadia
quote:
Weren't the Japs wrecking the pacific up until their blunders at Midway? Idk much about the Atlantic but the little I've read about the Pacific was it was all Japs.
they weren't wrecking things but it was a much more even battlefield. Their tactical mistakes at Midway will go down as some of the worst in WWII
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:27 pm to celltech1981
Would have been interesting with a German/Russian accord that let Germany take Europe and Russia attack China.
Russia gets access to Pacific and warm-water ports - Germany can focus on Europe without the resources to fight on two fronts.
I could see the U.S. resorting to isolationism and hunkering down with Canada and Mexico.
Russia gets access to Pacific and warm-water ports - Germany can focus on Europe without the resources to fight on two fronts.
I could see the U.S. resorting to isolationism and hunkering down with Canada and Mexico.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:32 pm to celltech1981
Well, if Russia had sided with Germany, they’d have not got any lend lease help from the US. Thus the Red Army would have effectively been immobized due to inability to transport vital supplies like fuel, ammo, or even food since they lacked the capacity to produce enough motor transport to support their army. And speaking of food, it would not have enough food to feed it’s own army. In fact, most of its soldiers would also be barefoot since they could not even make enough boots for them. Then there is a little thing called avaition fuel which it lacked the ability to refine alone in sufficient amounts to keep its Air Force fighting.
And don’t think for a minute the Germans could have helped because they were already stretch razor thin to supply their own needs, much less the needs of Russia.
So to answer your question, yes the Allies would have won without Russia. And that’s because of one simple, often overlooked when it comes to warfare, word... logistics.
And don’t think for a minute the Germans could have helped because they were already stretch razor thin to supply their own needs, much less the needs of Russia.
So to answer your question, yes the Allies would have won without Russia. And that’s because of one simple, often overlooked when it comes to warfare, word... logistics.
This post was edited on 7/25/18 at 2:34 pm
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:35 pm to celltech1981
Russia invaded and conquered much of Europe in the closing days of the war after helping defeat Germany. Had they joined with Germany it would have been much different, but Germany wanted to conquer Russia too. Kind of hard to play the game this way, knowing the players.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:38 pm to celltech1981
quote:
if Russia has sided with Germany?
I'm not sure how this would be possible geopolitically, but to put it simply by just hypothesizing that Germany and the USSR were able to avoid going to war with each other for, say, 5 years from the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939, the British would have been doomed. I'm not sure what scenario brings the U.S. into the war in that scenario but the United States wasn't even able to seriously engage in land warfare in the ETO until November of 1942. That would have been enough time for the Germans to potentially expel the British from the Mediterranean and effectively make any possibility of threatening mainland Europe impossible. Imagine if the massive amounts of men, material, and effort that were committed to Barbarossa had been committed to victory over the British in the Mediterranean.
This post was edited on 7/25/18 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:43 pm to celltech1981
You don't know anything about the Russian/German dynamic...
The Russian word for German is actually translated as "idiot."
Think about that.
The Russian word for German is actually translated as "idiot."
Think about that.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:46 pm to celltech1981
I say yes still because of the production capabilities of the US. It ultimately would've ended up with Germany completely destroyed and then a war of attrition vs the Russians. It would ultimately end up like WWI where Austria-Hungary started things but got demolished leaving Germany to fight only in this case Germany gets demolished leaving Russia to fight.
Once the allies take the oil fields from Germany/Russia there's no way Russia could out-produce the allies. Either it goes to a stalemate while the allies essentially starve the Russians forcing a surrender or the allies attack when they can and whittle the Russians down. I would bet the war would've lasted 2 more years or so.
Once the allies take the oil fields from Germany/Russia there's no way Russia could out-produce the allies. Either it goes to a stalemate while the allies essentially starve the Russians forcing a surrender or the allies attack when they can and whittle the Russians down. I would bet the war would've lasted 2 more years or so.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:48 pm to celltech1981
quote:
without germany fighting russia there is a good chance that britain would have already fallen
I doubt they would've bothered invading England.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:51 pm to celltech1981
We should’ve stayed completely out of Europe, let the Nazis and Communists kill each other until they were all dead. Win/win.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 2:55 pm to cascadia
quote:
Weren't the Japs wrecking the pacific up until their blunders at Midway? Idk much about the Atlantic but the little I've read about the Pacific was it was all Japs.
They were but it wouldn't have lasted even if Midway never happens. Japan couldn't sustain a long war from a production standpoint. Still, Midway happened in June of '42 and from that point on the Allies controlled both oceans. Once Japan folds, the allies have all those islands plus China from which to launch planes into Russia. I'm sure we also would've gotten bases in Finland to attack from the north.
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