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re: Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) ***W.H.O. DECLARES A GLOBAL PANDEMIC***

Posted on 7/8/20 at 11:10 pm to
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35381 posts
Posted on 7/8/20 at 11:10 pm to
quote:

The control group was basically mask use. What type we don’t know? Could have been medical masks as well.
They did try to track their mask usage, and they did a follow-up analysis with those who exclusively used the medical masks (170 from control) or cloth mask (38 from control) and included them with the other groups and found similar results.

However, this seemed like a wasted opportunity since 245, over 53% of the control group used both, but they excluded them from the analysis. Put to me, they could provide useful information, since this provides more variance in the treatment measure instead of just a binary variable. And since we would expected people who had say 50/50 mask usage, to have a higher risk than the 100% medical mask group but a lower risk than a 100% cloth group, including them would be able to test that and provide more informative results. So basically they didn’t actually have a control group in practice to make any meaningful comparison, and they failed to use the unique differences of that control group to provide meaningful information.

Regardless, maybe this is just a difference between the social sciences publications (my area) and my medical publications but I’m frustrated by the lack of details in their modeling. I’m used to seeing a correlation tables of all the relevant variables to see what the relationships are with the outcomes and multiple models, p-values, the model fit, a and a comparison of model fit, when doing a stepwise analysis.

Furthermore, for an experimental model with at least 2 already published studies, their process for testing and including confounding variables is unusually exploratory and the process itself is odd to say the least.

Specifically, they say they only included variables that has a p-value less than 0.25 in a univariate analysis then did a backward elimination with those that met the criteria.


This seems odd for a couple of reasons: first I n an experimental study, there are often variables that one would want included regardless of their significance for theoretical and practical reasons. For example, I’d mask compliance and/or vaccinations were not significant, that still may need to be included because they should have impact in the outcome and their lack of significance may be due to a lack of power and/or limited variation in those variables for this sample.

Second, I don’t understand why they did a univariate analysis of the variables for initial selection since their are multiple stepwise procedure they could have used starting with the full model, like they did after the initial selection. Furthermore, some variables could be non-significant in the univariate analysis but significant when other variables are included. So they may have been useful to include. On the other hand, some significant variables in the univariate analysis but are extremely non-significant in the multivariate analysis because their initial significance was due to the relationship with another, better variable.

The whole modeling process was just odd. And since they didn’t provide any tables and/or documentation to show the process and the relationships, we have no idea if they even had the best model to evaluate the experiment.

Finally, and maybe I missed why this is the case, but I’m perplexed by the difference in sizes of the groups which we’re supposedly randomized. They had 1,607 participants and 3 groups. So we would expect equal sized groups, (or 2 groups with 536 and 1 with 535 1,607 isn’t divisible by 3), or at least just a percentage or so difference given that there may be some logistical issues to make them as precisely equal as possible. However, the control group had 458 (28.5%) and the medical mask group has 580 (36.1%). That’s a difference of 122 participants or a 7.6% sample difference. That’s such a large difference that doesn’t appear to be anything like randomization and/or due to minor logistical placement issues with the ward clusters. Again, maybe I missed it, but that seems something that should have been addressed very clearly.

In summary, they present it as a Randomized-Control study, but they don’t actually have a control and their randomization seems questionable as well. So it may be neither. Ok top of that, their modeling procedures are questionable and non-transparent. Regardless, I’m comfortable with the conclusion that medical masks are better than cloth masks, which I thought was widely known anyways. Furthermore, the differences are evident in a hospital setting, for obvious reasons.

However, this study does not indicate whether cloth masks are better or worse than no mask at all in a HOSPITAL setting, let alone outside of that setting. So anyone using this study to say they aren’t useful for the general public, is not basing it on any evidence in the study.
Posted by Wishnitwas1998
where TN, MS, and AL meet
Member since Oct 2010
64517 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 2:29 am to
Prayers for his healing, I can’t imagine how tough that is for you and your wife
Posted by AmosMosesAndTwins
Lake Charles
Member since Apr 2010
19013 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:30 am to
We’re up to 4 staff and 4 resident positives in my facility.
Posted by lsu13lsu
Member since Jan 2008
11821 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:39 am to
quote:

Regardless, I’m comfortable with the conclusion that medical masks are better than cloth masks, which I thought was widely known anyways.


I agree with this and this is the reason I posted. Most people in my area are wearing cloth masks and not wearing them appropriately. Many are even trying to look fashionable with designer cloth masks.
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35381 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 9:10 am to
quote:

Prayers for his healing, I can’t imagine how tough that is for you and your wife
Thanks. He’s apparently much better this morning. His fever spiked at 105 but was down to 98.6. I guess they’re concerned about his oxygen levels though, even though he didn’t notice any complications himself. Although I’ve heard that this is common with COVID. People often don’t realize that they’re having oxygen issue, even when it’s at dangerously low levels.
Posted by Kingpenm3
Xanadu
Member since Aug 2011
9924 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 10:21 am to
quote:

I agree with this and this is the reason I posted. Most people in my area are wearing cloth masks and not wearing them appropriately. Many are even trying to look fashionable with designer cloth masks.


After 100' of 1000's if positives, can't we conclude that the masks are preventing anything?
Posted by Ronaldo Burgundiaz
NWA
Member since Jan 2012
6793 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 11:53 am to
quote:

After 100' of 1000's if positives, can't we conclude that the masks are preventing anything?
Also, Los Angeles required masks indoors and outdoors 7 weeks ago and their cases are spiking now.

If COVID is transmitted via aerosolized particles, cloth masks are completely useless and probably do more harm than good due to the false sense of security cloth masks provide.

Either way, I tend to agree with Norway's Insititute of Public Health:
NIPH - Should individuals in the community without respiratory symptoms wear facemasks to reduce the spread of COVID-19? – a rapid review

quote:

Non-medical facemasks include a variety of products. There is no reliable evidence of the effectiveness of non-medical facemasks in community settings.

quote:

Assuming that 20% of people infectious with SARS-CoV-2 do not have symptoms, and assuming a risk reduction of 40% for wearing facemask, 200 000 people would need to wear facemasks to prevent one new infection per week in the current epidemiological situation. The undesirable effects of facemasks include the risks of incorrect use, a false sense of security (leading to relaxation of other interventions), and contamination of masks.


Posted by WaWaWeeWa
Member since Oct 2015
15714 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 12:04 pm to
quote:

People often don’t realize that they’re having oxygen issue, even when it’s at dangerously low levels.


Our bodies are designed to detect high carbon dioxide levels, that’s what controls our breathing rate. We do not have good sensors to detect lowering oxygen levels. Usually lower oxygen levels go hand in hand with higher carbon dioxide levels, but not in this case

That’s why some doctors have compared covid to carbon monoxide poisoning. With carbon monoxide poisoning we are unable to bind oxygen to red blood cells. You can have perfectly normal carbon dioxide levels but very low oxygen levels. You body will not be triggered to breath faster.
Posted by WaWaWeeWa
Member since Oct 2015
15714 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 12:05 pm to
quote:

After 100' of 1000's if positives, can't we conclude that the masks are preventing anything?


We don’t have a control group of people that don’t wear any masks at all. Actually come to think of it, the poli board would be a good control group.
Posted by lsu13lsu
Member since Jan 2008
11821 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 12:24 pm to
quote:

cloth masks are completely useless and probably do more harm than good due to the false sense of security cloth masks provide.


Also, the problem with cloth masks are that people are reusing them, storing them in their purses or pockets, not cleaning them or sanitizing them and on and on.
Posted by Kingpenm3
Xanadu
Member since Aug 2011
9924 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 1:42 pm to
quote:

Reading from Dr. Googles. IgG antibodies are produced 1 week after infection and IgM are produced 2-4 weeks after infection. So if he has both that means he was infected 3-4 weeks ago, recovered and has the antibodies in his system? How long do they stay there?


quote:

No one knows. Genuinely, no one knows.



Podcast with an expert (where he says that no one knows).

https://peterattiamd.com/stanleyperlman/
Posted by tgr4ever
Gwinnett, baw
Member since Jul 2011
16214 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 1:50 pm to
LINK

Bald and bankrupt posted his experience with Covid 19.

Its 12 minutes, but its a good watch. He isnt one to bullshite.
Posted by Kingpenm3
Xanadu
Member since Aug 2011
9924 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 1:57 pm to
quote:

if what you are saying is true than china must be sitting on hundreds of thousands of corpses.

i mean i agree that they're probably fudging their data but still - they can't hide half a million dead over 6 months.

they effectively stopped the spread by doing much the same thing every other country has now done - granted a more muscular version - but the same basic strategy all the same.

the virus can be tamed.

we stopped trying.


I cannot find any evidence that absolutely anything that we have done to prevent infection has worked. So it is hard for me to believe that doing MORE would have any effect at all.
Posted by STLhog
Dallas, TX
Member since Jan 2015
19470 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 4:12 pm to
quote:

I cannot find any evidence that absolutely anything that we have done to prevent infection has worked. So it is hard for me to believe that doing MORE would have any effect at all.



Curious as to how you explain Europe then...? Not trying to argue just looking for points of view.
Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
111522 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 4:14 pm to
What about Europe? Overall they have a worse mortality rate and just about the exact same infection rate
Posted by STLhog
Dallas, TX
Member since Jan 2015
19470 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 4:17 pm to
quote:

What about Europe? Overall they have a worse mortality rate and just about the exact same infection rate



Talking about timing.

Looks like Germany and Spain are testing at the same level as the US per 100,000. Not apples to apples as they have smaller populations but the gap still doesn't totally add up to me.

Is it just a case of our larger population and more tests making it that high?

LINK
This post was edited on 7/9/20 at 4:27 pm
Posted by Kingpenm3
Xanadu
Member since Aug 2011
9924 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 4:26 pm to
quote:

Curious as to how you explain Europe then...? Not trying to argue just looking for points of view.



Those countries just don't care about positive tests now. And here's why... In medicine the rule is supposed to be that you only order a test if it will change your treatment. Well there is not any treatment for Covid+ pts that is any different than those that come into the ER/floor/ICU with the same symptoms and vitals. Look at France, running a 20% cfr. Only way that is possible is if they are only running tests when they feel verification of the virus would help the treatment. No reason to test others, because we cannot quarantine this thing into extinction. In fact, I would be very scared if I was a country actually claiming to not have any infection right now, because it is going to happen eventually.
Posted by STLhog
Dallas, TX
Member since Jan 2015
19470 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 4:29 pm to
Why does Spain and Germany's CFR seem so low when they're testing the same amount as we are per 100,000?

I guess a couple percentage points isn't that much in the grand scheme but is there any reason to explain why they are lower? Just further along in the pandemic I guess?

Basing off the link above and haven't read back in this thread in a while. Trying to get myself updated/educated.
This post was edited on 7/9/20 at 4:31 pm
Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
111522 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 4:30 pm to
Well why not mention France who has double us? Or Sweden?

That’s my point. Yes, you can pull some European countries with better numbers. And you can pull some with worse

Overall, they are very consistent with the US
Posted by STLhog
Dallas, TX
Member since Jan 2015
19470 posts
Posted on 7/9/20 at 4:32 pm to
No arguing that at all. Don't take it the wrong way.

Just wondering what is coming out that Germany and Spain have done relative to others that seems to be effective?

Just pure chance? No one knows?

Like I said, I've disconnected the last few months and tried to enjoy the summer a little bit.
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