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re: Are transgender thoughts a mental disorder of some sort?
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:02 am to LSUSoulja08
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:02 am to LSUSoulja08
quote:
I don't think you guys really understand what it takes for something to be classified as a mental illness
Anybody that wants to have their dick cut off = insane
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:02 am to dualed
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/13/16 at 2:50 pm
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:04 am to Negative Nomad
quote:
they're a special kind of fricked up.
I posted this morning in the long thread. How is this any different than the weirdos who get tattoos and body mutilations to look like a lizard or a tiger? It's not different. Both cases are people going out of their way to pretend to be something they're not, because they enjoy it. And hey, if you like it..so be it. Knock yourself out. But quit telling everyone it's ok and we all love you for it.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:04 am to LSUSoulja08
quote:Not that Scruffy disagrees entirely with the DSM, but it is heavily political.
I don't think you guys really understand what it takes for something to be classified as a mental illness Read the DSM-IV and get back to me
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:06 am to Negative Nomad
quote:
The transsexuals should just go ahead and suck on the end of a gun barrel because they're a special kind of fricked up.
mental disorder has very strong connotations that are negative, so I think its mildly problematic to call it a mental disorder. But its definitely not normal.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:06 am to Moustache
Similar discussion on reddit this morning. Here is the top upvoted comment.
granted, this was not a mental disorder discussion, but it still applies.
eta shite, let me space that out. brb
quote:
Well, to start off with, there's a big divide between biological sex and gender. I highly recommend you research this more, but I'll try to touch on the basics.
Sex is rooted in an organism's DNA, and is defined by which reproductive cells (sperm or eggs) they produce. Animals with testes who produce sperm are biologically male, and animals with ovaries who produce eggs are considered female. You're probably familiar with X and Y chromosomes, which is how sex is determined in humans, right?
Actually, things go wrong. Swyer Syndrome is a big example, in which a person has an XY chromosome but something goes wrong with the Y. Humans are actually female by default, and the Y chromosome is required to activate in order to form male parts. Without it, people with Swyer develop uteri, vaginae, and other normal female organs. However, they have streak gonads which don't produce sperm OR eggs. So what do you call them? Their chromosomes say male. Their organs say female. But they can't reproduce as either one. This is just one of many examples of conditions that show how sex is not even nearly as straightforward as it seems when everything goes normally.
So, this is only half the problem. Now we need to address gender. While there are several definitions of gender, some of which address biology, the accepted definition in most of the social sciences is the combination of external and internal social features that are associated with masculinity or femininity. These usually, but not often, correlate with sex. But for obvious reasons, people who lack an easily definable sex might also be hard to correctly gender. But, clearly, these people aren't genderless, they still have elements of masculinity and/or femininity. That leads us to the question: if gender can be rooted in something that isn't biology, isn't it always rooted in something else, at least partially?
The easy answer is a person's feelings. Hormones, body structures, socialization, and a thousand other things can feed into how we perceive our gender, leading to the inevitable conclusion that gender is determined primarily by how we act and how others act towards us.
Imagine, if you will, that you find out tomorrow you actually have two X chromosomes. I'm assuming you're male, or at least you think you are. But for all you know, your genitals are the product of elaborate surgery when you were an infant- you actually were born with a vagina and streak gonads, but your clitoris was large enough that doctors were able to turn it into a penis and give you testicular implants. I'll admit, it's far-fetched, but in the end it's very hard to know our sex for certain until we've conceived a child or had serious testing done. But let's assume it happens. Would you immediately ask for breast implants, get your facial hair permanently removed, and start dating men while considering yourself straight? Probably not, right? Your gender goes deeper than just what you understand your body to be.
Similarly, if you were abducted by aliens and had your sex switched against your will, do you think you would still identify with your prior gender?
Now, don't get me wrong. There's a heavy correlation between sex and gender for a reason, and part of that is biology. Testosterone does correlate with aggressive, masculine behavior. But there are plenty of aggressive women, right? And while pregnancy does cause mothers to form a tight chemical bond with their children, there are fathers out there who form just as close of an emotional connection without being pregnant. Our bodies might make it easier to act as our gender, might give us the right chemical cues and biological urges, but they do not define everything we feel.
Furthermore, gender isn't even so much about feelings as it is the way we act. Crossdressing proves this- a convincing crossdresser knows how to present themselves as the opposite gender, to the point where few people will ever guess their sex doesn't "match up". Have you ever wanted to wear a dress, just to see what it's like? Wished someone would bring you flowers or pick you up for prom or be the big spoon? Maybe you wanted to wear pink or high heels or makeup? You could even enjoy baking or childcare or color-organizing your sock drawer, for all I know. Ovaries don't make someone any more likely to enjoy the color pink than testicles do, these things are based in our personal preferences and how we were socialized as kids.
Being transgender means that your genitals don't match up with the gender that you relate most to. Most of us have some preferences and behaviors that don't line up with our gender, like tbulldykes. They are clearly able to have these masculine feelings, preferences, and behaviors while still identifying as a woman. However, is it so hard to believe that they could have a few more of those preferences, pushing them into predominantly masculine territory? People fall all over the spectrum; we do a lot of policing to tell children what they're "supposed" to do and like, but if you watch toddlers at play when they're still too young to have this solidly internalized, you'll see there are a good number of girls who run with the boys and boys who play house with the girls. Being transgender later in life is just like that on a more complex scale, having preferences that are mostly feminine when you have testes or masculine when you have ovaries.
Basically, our bodies don't define what we think, feel, and do. From a biological standpoint of sex, maybe we really can't change. But from a social and cultural point, it's not only possible, it's fairly easy.
granted, this was not a mental disorder discussion, but it still applies.
eta shite, let me space that out. brb
This post was edited on 6/2/15 at 10:08 am
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:06 am to LSUSoulja08
quote:
Read the DSM-IV and get back to me
Your list includes GID. So are you agreeing that transexualism is a mental disorder?
quote:
Gender identity disorders
Gender identity disorder
302.85 In adolescents or adults
302.6 In children
302.6 Gender identity disorder NOS
302.9 Sexual disorder NOS
And saying something is a mental illness because psychiatry says it is (lists it on the DSM-IV) is foolish. Psychiatry defined homosexuality as a mental disorder before; why did it suddenly become not-a-disorder?
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:06 am to terd ferguson
It is as much a mental disorder as those who get constant plastic surgery to fix perceived flaws.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:08 am to Scruffy
Homosexuality is more of a biological defect more so than a mental disorder. Even the staunchest gay rights supporter couldn't deny that
But one could argue that they are one in the same, I wouldn't. But someone could
But one could argue that they are one in the same, I wouldn't. But someone could
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:09 am to Scruffy
quote:
those who get constant plastic surgery
Nutjobs
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:09 am to Negative Nomad
quote:
I fully believe it's a mental disorder. I also believe it's something that can't be fixed either, no matter how much therapy you get.
what do you use to form your opinions? Meaning, have you researched the topic? I haven't, but I don't have as strong of opinion on it as you.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:12 am to dualed
I think it's a mental disorder, but it can't be "fixed" and isn't a significant problem.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:14 am to GreatLakesTiger24
Yea, I mean people have been trannys for a long time. Billions of people are on this planet; some will be weird as frick.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:26 am to terd ferguson
quote:
Anybody that wants to have their dick cut off = insane
Agree with this.
Two hypotheticals keep coming to mind:
What if Eminem surgically changed his appearance to become a black man named Tyrone?
And what if Jeb Corliss found some Dr's to put wings on his back and wanted to be called Tweety?
We can identify with whatever feels natural. I support that. But CHOOSING to surgically alter your God-given body to be something you were not born to be is fricked up.
If you feel like a woman on the inside then dress up like one, tuck your tick and get fricked in the arse.
Just like Jeb has to don a wing suit to fly.
frick Bruce Jenner. And anyone who thinks he's a woman is retarded.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:30 am to cas4t
quote:And everyone who disagreed was downvoted 857 times and banned from Reddit. The place is a bastion of liberal thought policing, and why I never registered there.
Similar discussion on reddit this morning. Here is the top upvoted comment.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:32 am to GreatLakesTiger24
quote:
isn't a significant problem.
The only problem is that certain segments of our society expect us to celebrate it, and thinking it is a disorder (even without active discrimination) is labeled as bigoted, narrow minded, and reactionary.
I don't give a flying rat frick if someone wants to graft a cock out of their thigh skin, or turn their penis inside out to make a pseudo-pussy. Just don't expect me to think that you're all there in the head.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:32 am to Moustache
quote:American society has a hard time discussing mental disorder period.
But, should we as a society try to fix the mental disorder instead of performing radical surgery.
Also, your claim for radical surgery sound eerily similar to what is practiced in Iran
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:32 am to Moustache
so i guess there's nothing wrong with me when i'm spending hours surfing straight p0rn on xnxx, but I have a "mental disorder" for those other hours after i'm completely desensitized to regular chicks and start thinking how life might be different with a beautiful thai ladyboy that my friends couldn't tell was a he and didn't complain all the time?
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:33 am to Moustache
My 7 year old would rather play video games all day than go to school. Why does the government force him to identify as something different than he wants?
Is that the next step? Or is it forcing businesses to have a male, female, family, and litterbox restrooms?
Is that the next step? Or is it forcing businesses to have a male, female, family, and litterbox restrooms?
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:34 am to cas4t
quote:
Well, to start off with, there's a big divide between biological sex and gender. I highly recommend you research this more, but I'll try to touch on the basics.
Sex is rooted in an organism's DNA, and is defined by which reproductive cells (sperm or eggs) they produce. Animals with testes who produce sperm are biologically male, and animals with ovaries who produce eggs are considered female. You're probably familiar with X and Y chromosomes, which is how sex is determined in humans, right?
Trying to divide sex and gender is great for philosophy and the study of comparative cultures and how they define gender roles; but it has no application in real life.
quote:
Actually, things go wrong. Swyer Syndrome is a big example, in which a person has an XY chromosome but something goes wrong with the Y. Humans are actually female by default, and the Y chromosome is required to activate in order to form male parts. Without it, people with Swyer develop uteri, vaginae, and other normal female organs. However, they have streak gonads which don't produce sperm OR eggs. So what do you call them? Their chromosomes say male. Their organs say female. But they can't reproduce as either one. This is just one of many examples of conditions that show how sex is not even nearly as straightforward as it seems when everything goes normally.
No one is saying people with Down's aren't human because they don't have 23 chromosomes. Physical deformities and birth defects are a completely different issue and are a common blimp with regards to gay and transgender debates. The argument made above that we do not have 2 clearly defined sexes relies on the assumption that because there can be biological deformities at birth, we should scrap the biological fact that humans have 2 sexes, and only 2. There is no naturally viable 3rd option.
quote:
So, this is only half the problem. Now we need to address gender. While there are several definitions of gender, some of which address biology, the accepted definition in most of the social sciences is the combination of external and internal social features that are associated with masculinity or femininity. These usually, but not often, correlate with sex. But for obvious reasons, people who lack an easily definable sex might also be hard to correctly gender. But, clearly, these people aren't genderless, they still have elements of masculinity and/or femininity. That leads us to the question: if gender can be rooted in something that isn't biology, isn't it always rooted in something else, at least partially?
So now we make the argument that gender and biology are unconnected, because if we make the leap that despite all the biological evidence to the contrary, men and women are completely the same, this is a natural second step.
You can break it down however you want, but there are 2 defined genders in almost every culture and they are directly tied to biology for good reason. Of course, multi-gender apologists like to point to Polynesian culture with had a 3rd 'sub-gender'. Except we aren't in ancient Polynesian culture. We're in modern culture.
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