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Message
re: Are transgender thoughts a mental disorder of some sort?
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:34 am to cokebottleag
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:34 am to cokebottleag
quote:
The easy answer is a person's feelings. Hormones, body structures, socialization, and a thousand other things can feed into how we perceive our gender, leading to the inevitable conclusion that gender is determined primarily by how we act and how others act towards us.
The post JUST made the argument that biology is unconnected to gender, but now we are saying that gender is a result of biology? This is of course necessary if we are going to propose that to be a female gender, we have to make biological changes, not excluding genital mutilation. If you followed the argument put forth earlier, that gender and biology are unconnected, well then there is no need to engage in genital mutilation because changing your body does not change your gender.
quote:
Imagine, if you will, that you find out tomorrow you actually have two X chromosomes. I'm assuming you're male, or at least you think you are. But for all you know, your genitals are the product of elaborate surgery when you were an infant- you actually were born with a vagina and streak gonads, but your clitoris was large enough that doctors were able to turn it into a penis and give you testicular implants. I'll admit, it's far-fetched, but in the end it's very hard to know our sex for certain until we've conceived a child or had serious testing done. But let's assume it happens. Would you immediately ask for breast implants, get your facial hair permanently removed, and start dating men while considering yourself straight? Probably not, right? Your gender goes deeper than just what you understand your body to be.
Again, we just made the argument over the first few paragraphs that gender is unconnected to biology. Now the argument is that your gender is entirely dependent on your biology.
Engaging in this silly hypothetical is not productive. Hermaphroditism is a genetic defect of chromosomes and is a physical deformity. Surgery to correct physical birth defects is common. My mental state would not be the issue here.
quote:
Similarly, if you were abducted by aliens and had your sex switched against your will, do you think you would still identify with your prior gender?
Now, don't get me wrong. There's a heavy correlation between sex and gender for a reason, and part of that is biology. Testosterone does correlate with aggressive, masculine behavior. But there are plenty of aggressive women, right? And while pregnancy does cause mothers to form a tight chemical bond with their children, there are fathers out there who form just as close of an emotional connection without being pregnant. Our bodies might make it easier to act as our gender, might give us the right chemical cues and biological urges, but they do not define everything we feel.
We get even more silly in an effort to explain why gender and biology are indeed connected.
quote:
Furthermore, gender isn't even so much about feelings as it is the way we act. Crossdressing proves this- a convincing crossdresser knows how to present themselves as the opposite gender, to the point where few people will ever guess their sex doesn't "match up". Have you ever wanted to wear a dress, just to see what it's like? Wished someone would bring you flowers or pick you up for prom or be the big spoon? Maybe you wanted to wear pink or high heels or makeup? You could even enjoy baking or childcare or color-organizing your sock drawer, for all I know. Ovaries don't make someone any more likely to enjoy the color pink than testicles do, these things are based in our personal preferences and how we were socialized as kids.
None of this: Wearing pink, being organized, being the big spoon, enjoying baking, etc. require genital mutilation or hormones. I love cooking, I'm generally the small spoon because I don't like a shite-ton of hair in my face, and I have underwear with hearts on them. I'm a man. But we're now trying to argue that gender and biology are unconnected again. I wish the SJWs would make up their minds.
quote:
Being transgender means that your genitals don't match up with the gender that you relate most to. Most of us have some preferences and behaviors that don't line up with our gender, like tbulldykes. They are clearly able to have these masculine feelings, preferences, and behaviors while still identifying as a woman. However, is it so hard to believe that they could have a few more of those preferences, pushing them into predominantly masculine territory? People fall all over the spectrum; we do a lot of policing to tell children what they're "supposed" to do and like, but if you watch toddlers at play when they're still too young to have this solidly internalized, you'll see there are a good number of girls who run with the boys and boys who play house with the girls. Being transgender later in life is just like that on a more complex scale, having preferences that are mostly feminine when you have testes or masculine when you have ovaries.
There is no way this conclusion can be reached by the arguments listed above.
2
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:35 am to ctiger69
quote:
Transgender, homosexuals, and pedophiles are all a form of mental illness in my book.
quote:
pedophiles
To my knowledge, still are.
quote:
Transgender, homosexuals
according to the DSM, these were until the last 30 years or so.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:37 am to Scruffy
quote:There ya go throwing that H word around.
If we are honest
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:37 am to udtiger
quote:
according to the DSM, these were until the last 30 years or so.
That's because the DSM isn't reflective of actual hard medicine, but of what is politically correct at the time.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:39 am to mikelbr
quote:
What if Eminem surgically changed his appearance to become a black man named Tyrone?
And what if Jeb Corliss found some Dr's to put wings on his back and wanted to be called Tweety?
America would say 'what the hell is wrong with you? Why are you acting this way? Must be some sort of publicity stunt...no telling why they can't just act normal.'
Yet bruce does the same thing and is showered with praise for how bold and courageous he is.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:40 am to LSUSoulja08
quote:
Read the DSM-IV and get back to me
Disagreeing with the DSM is acceptable. If it's not, then your recommendation to read the IV over the V is contradictory.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:41 am to ctiger69
quote:CTIGER69 has the correct book.
Transgender, homosexuals, and pedophiles are all a form of mental illness in my book.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:43 am to terd ferguson
quote:Makes my peepee hurt just thinking it.
have their dick cut off
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:44 am to mikelbr
quote:
What if Eminem surgically changed his appearance to become a black man named Tyrone?
Michael Jackson became a 'white man'. Already happened. No one wanted to celebrate it or call him brave for bleaching his skin.
quote:
And what if Jeb Corliss found some Dr's to put wings on his back and wanted to be called Tweety?
Probably, and it would be a mental condition.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:45 am to Moustache
There's apparently all kinds of psychological screenings you have to go through for any doctor to even come close to thinking about doing this for you. It's not like people are deciding they're a woman then the next day getting a surgery. If you're deemed mentally unstable, which happens in the vast majority of cases like these, then nobody will perform the surgery.
Bruce Jenner is different because he's a celebrity.
Bruce Jenner is different because he's a celebrity.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:45 am to Moustache
Here's a great article discussing this topic. It raises some very interesting points.
TownHall.com
TownHall.com
quote:
If someone came to a doctor and asked him to cut off a perfectly healthy arm because it just felt "wrong" for the arm to be there, should the doctor do it? This isn't an idle question because this does happen with a mental illness called Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). People who have it feel as if they're not supposed to have a certain body part, like an arm or leg. As a general rule, doctors won't remove a healthy body part; so some of these poor deluded people crush, mangle, burn, or otherwise deliberately destroy their own arms or legs in order to get a surgeon to slice them off.
This raises a question: Are surgeons who refuse to remove healthy limbs from people with BIID doing them a service because they're mentally ill or are they denying them their civil rights? MOST of us would say that a surgeon who refuses to cut off a healthy leg is doing the right thing.
quote:
There are people demanding that we change the birth certificates of people who’ve had sex reassignment surgery to reflect the gender they now claim to be. Children are being told to use whatever bathroom they feel most comfortable using. Kids under the age of 10 are being given drugs and treatment to prepare them for sex change surgery later on.
This is what happens when you cater to a pathology instead of treating it.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:46 am to Henry Jones Jr
quote:
There's apparently all kinds of psychological screenings you have to go through for any doctor to even come close to thinking about doing this for you. It's not like people are deciding they're a woman then the next day getting a surgery. If you're deemed mentally unstable, which happens in the vast majority of cases like these, then nobody will perform the surgery.
Again, the problem here is not Jenner. He is a mentally ill man, who went to get help for his mental condition. The problem is the quacks who are proscribing genital mutilation and hormone therapies for a mental illness.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:47 am to cokebottleag
Jenner isn't the problem, I agree. If it were anyone else, nobody would agree to do the things he wants done.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:48 am to Henry Jones Jr
quote:Wouldn't this actually work against him. Hypothetically, if Jenner decided to kill herself after this whole ordeal. The backlash on the doctor's involved would be pretty heavy.
Bruce Jenner is different because he's a celebrity.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:51 am to cokebottleag
quote:
he problem is the quacks who are proscribing genital mutilation and hormone therapies for a mental illness.
So you think transgenders can be fixed with long term therapy? How is this any different from the decades we tried to "fixed" homosexuals with intense therapy?
On different note, this country already has a hard time discussing mental illness. So I highly doubt we'll actually have a serious conversation on the subject.
This post was edited on 6/2/15 at 10:53 am
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:51 am to blueboy
I'll agree that reddit is about as liberal as they come. But in instances like this, I'd prefer to look at the science and also hear from those who are transsexuals themselves. It's the only way to really try to wrap your head around it, IMO.
Case in point, Naegative Nomad, or whatever his handle is, has formed an opinion based off of nothing but his personal opinions, which likely lack any form intellectual backing. It's just weird to him. Hey, it's weird to me too. I don't understand it. It's crazy. Just because someone has a chemical imbalance, it doesn't necessarily make it a "disorder", right?
I mean, people are different. Some people on a minor scale, and some, like Jenner, on a grander scale.
To say something is wrong with someone else, just because they were born with a different hormonal balance, is small minded IMO. Anyone that paid attention in A&P knows how complex and how many things can go differently in fetal development.
i.e.
Case in point, Naegative Nomad, or whatever his handle is, has formed an opinion based off of nothing but his personal opinions, which likely lack any form intellectual backing. It's just weird to him. Hey, it's weird to me too. I don't understand it. It's crazy. Just because someone has a chemical imbalance, it doesn't necessarily make it a "disorder", right?
I mean, people are different. Some people on a minor scale, and some, like Jenner, on a grander scale.
To say something is wrong with someone else, just because they were born with a different hormonal balance, is small minded IMO. Anyone that paid attention in A&P knows how complex and how many things can go differently in fetal development.
i.e.
quote:
During one stage of a baby's development if the mothers body produces male hormones the babies genitals will become male and if the mother produces female hormones then the genitals will be female. This can even happen in opposition to the genetic sex of the baby.
There is also a second wash of sex hormones that occurs while the brain is developing. It is thought by some researchers that crossing the wrong hormones at that time is what leads to transgender issues. Studies with animals has shown that purposely giving the animal the wrong hormones during that brain development stage will even cause the animal to exhibit mating behaviors of the opposite sex even if the genitals match their genetic sex.
Genetics may also play a part in the hormones not being as effective or the baby being more sensitive to hormonal imbalances that might cause Gender Issues and the child to become Transgender. So two of the three are in some way hormonally based and prenatal hormones can be affected by stress, medications, pollutants, disease and numerous other things.
The last factor is the environment that children grow up in but that seems to be the least likely cause. The simple fact is that children raised in an environment with other same sex siblings only a year or two apart can still show gender nonconformity even though no other siblings do.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:52 am to cokebottleag
That Reddit post was terrible. It's like the author was arguing with himself.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:52 am to Moustache
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/2/15 at 11:19 am
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:52 am to Moustache
I could argue that yes it is somewhat a mental disorder to want to be transgender. You were born a male but mentally your mind wants you to be a woman. Therefore it's a mental disorder.
Posted on 6/2/15 at 10:54 am to ClientNumber9
quote:
If someone came to a doctor and asked him to cut off a perfectly healthy arm because it just felt "wrong" for the arm to be there, should the doctor do it? This isn't an idle question because this does happen with a mental illness called Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). People who have it feel as if they're not supposed to have a certain body part, like an arm or leg. As a general rule, doctors won't remove a healthy body part; so some of these poor deluded people crush, mangle, burn, or otherwise deliberately destroy their own arms or legs in order to get a surgeon to slice them off.
What in the actual frick?
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