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re: 767 cargo plane crash outside Houston
Posted on 3/3/19 at 9:18 am to HerkFlyer
Posted on 3/3/19 at 9:18 am to HerkFlyer
quote:Oh, i thought you were being super technical aviation guy. My apologies on the smart comment towards you.
Yeah sort of. My first post on the NA102 crash was shitty wording. I was trying to convey that it wasn't the only reason for the crash.
Posted on 3/3/19 at 4:40 pm to The Mick
Just saw that they FDR has been found.
Posted on 3/4/19 at 11:52 am to redstick13
Just saw this post on a pilot forum: LINK
quote:
Tim Vasquez, meteorologist in Texas here... weather data analysis is what I do for a living, and some of you may remember me from the Air France 447 study about 10 years ago.
Regarding the 767 crash in Houston, a lot of images seem to be floating around that use default radar mosaics. These are problematic as they're focused on higher intensity levels, they are not very granular, they often carry an ambiguous scan time, and they're often built from composite products which are the result of multiple scans rather than a single scan. This makes it very difficult to use such data except to define the basic environment. In fact, I initially didn't think much of weather being a factor based on the preliminary images I saw. However I went ahead and accessed the raw WSR-88D base data files, which are for a single level and accurate to within about 1 minute, and I found some interesting stuff.
First of all, one caveat with these images: the ones I've posted here are built from 0.5-deg scans, which were underneath the 767 at a beam center altitude of about 2000-2500 ft and a beam width of about 2000 ft. I used these because there are usually a lack of scatterers at the higher tilts, and most of the convective circulations we see above 5000+ ft are initially generated near the surface. So there are indeed some assumptions about what is going on up at 5000 ft, where the problem presumably started. Time stamps are based on the FlightAware track log, which comes straight from the ASDI feed. My assumption is these times are accurate. Sorry for the watermarks, I got burned back in 2009 by the media reprinting my diagrams commercially without permission.
A couple of conclusions:
* A textbook gust front is clearly shown within 3 nm of the crash site. This correlation is definite and is striking.
* There were no thunderstorms within 5 nm of the crash site. There may have virga or weak showers though.
* It appears some sort of gust surge developed over northern Trinity Bay, lasting about 10 minutes, originating from the storms further west near Baytown, and it reinforced the gust front. This developed ground-relative motion of 50-60 kt along a band 6 nm long oriented NE-SW.
* Velocity product showed a transitory divergent couplet with 65 kt of shear within a 1 nm volume, slightly below and left of the track. This could be a piece of the northern edge of the gust surge. This is probably associated with turbulent motion, as the result of shear & friction along the frontal boundary.
* Velocity at higher levels (4000+ ft) and along the forward edge of the gust front are typically difficult to determine in these situations because a lack of scatterers.
* I don't think a gust front like this is anything that looks particularly dangerous. That said, it's impossible to directly measure turbulence, and in between the turbulence and cloud scales there are often strong circulations that can go undetected. Typically when we see small-scale patterns on radar imagery with strong gradients and circulation, we consider the possibility that strong motions can extrapolate down to the smaller scales. It's certainly possible that this gust surge rolled up into a vortex like I've shown in the cross-section below.. this can certainly be a hazardous area to fly in.
In short I'm skeptical weather caused a direct effect, but I do see enormous potential for a sudden, rough ride here, and that could have been the first event in a chain that led to something like a CG shift or loss of a control surface (from fatigue, improper maintenance, design issue, something like the 737 in Colorado Springs, etc).
It would be interesting to see what the TDWR radars showed, unfortunately as I have to attend to my other work I probably won't have time to look at this.
Anyway this is just an armchair analysis and I'm sure the investigators have more information at this point than we do, but it's nice to have quantitative data to work from.
quote:
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Conceptual vertical cross section of air flow along a gust front ahead of a microburst.
Posted on 3/4/19 at 11:59 am to When in Rome
quote:
Those photos are very interesting. The gentleman on the left is a GE Rep, but I don’t know if that indicates they we’re looking at a piece of engine or cowling. The damage to the material is quite idiosyncratic.
quote:
Not an engineer but if by idiosyncratic you mean suggestive of ‘shrapnel’-like penetration of the object with paint loss around penetration areas (compare with photos of mh17 debris), mainly from outside in but at least one from inside out, I agree. Likely source, engines, but odd to have caused such rapid loss of control.
Posted on 3/4/19 at 12:13 pm to When in Rome
quote:
It looks like the airplane followed a parabola, maintaining forward velocity while building up vertical velocity, as evidenced by the near constant GPS (=ground) speed in the FR24 data. As Sumwalt stated in the briefing, the aircraft flew wings level but in a steep nose down attitude. Lack of elevator effectiveness springs to mind. In the presumed absence of intent (i.e. suicide) it remains to be seen whether that's a runaway trim, complete loss of elevator control, or loss of elevator/tail surfaces. In level flight, the tail surface provides a net down force, lose some of that surface, and an up moment of the tail ensues resulting in a nose down moment on the pitch axis.
quote:
ADS-B data from FR24 gives GPS derived speed, which is the ground speed, i.e. the speed of the aircraft in the horizontal plane only as seen from straight above. If you're tossing a stone off a tower by throwing it away from the tower, it will retain most of the forward velocity but vertical velocity will continue to increase until it hits the ground, thus creating parabolic flight path. An aircraft without (sufficient) elevator authority will do the same. The impact velocity is far greater than the horizontal velocity would indicate, it's the vector product of both the horizontal and vertical speed components. Lion Air was a very different case. Fly Dubai and this Atlas crash look a lot more similar in the end phase - which bears absolutely no meaning on the root cause. All it says is: elevator authority was impaired. Period.
Posted on 3/5/19 at 4:51 pm to When in Rome
LINK
quote:
Directors from the Office of Research and Engineering and the Office of Aviation Safety conducted an audition of the CVR as part of the NTSB’s ongoing investigation of the accident. The audition revealed the following information, which is preliminary and subject to change as the investigation continues:
The length of the recording is approximately two hours and was obtained from a download of a solid-state type cockpit voice recorder.
The recording included the final portion of the flight; however, the quality of the audio is poor. There are times during the recording when the content of crew discussion is difficult to determine, at other times the content can be determined using advanced audio filtering.
The crew was in communication with air traffic control and were being provided radar vectors for the runway 26L approach into George Bush Intercontinental Airport.
Crew communications consistent with a loss control of the aircraft began approximately 18 seconds prior to the end of the recording.
Posted on 3/5/19 at 5:14 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
18 seconds
Damn.
Posted on 3/5/19 at 7:03 pm to LSU alum wannabe
The guys at Hobby killed a woman a year or so ago. Kept making her go back around trying to fit her slower smaller plane in between commercial. Guess she ran out of gas or ran out of experience being recreational. Fell out of the sky like a dead bird in a flat spin.
PIC??? Unless they have a joystick, I'm landing before I run out of gas.
PIC??? Unless they have a joystick, I'm landing before I run out of gas.
Posted on 3/5/19 at 7:04 pm to flyingtexastiger
Is a woman running out of gas really that surprising?
Posted on 3/5/19 at 7:15 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
You know a pilot from Tech initials DG?
Posted on 3/5/19 at 7:49 pm to flyingtexastiger
quote:
plane crash outside Houston by flyingtexastiger
The guys at Hobby killed a woman a year or so ago. Kept making her go back around trying to fit her slower smaller plane in between commercial. Guess she ran out of gas or ran out of experience being recreational. Fell out of the sky like a dead bird in a flat spin.
She didn't run out of fuel, she stalled. But the ntsb report did place some blame on ATC.
LINK
This post was edited on 3/5/19 at 7:50 pm
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:13 pm to upgrayedd
quote:Yup
You know a pilot from Tech initials DG?
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:18 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
I'm pretty sure I've met you before 
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:19 pm to upgrayedd
shite. Hope I was normal and not acting like I do on here
My brother in law flies with him. He’s also a tech grad from the same era.
My brother in law flies with him. He’s also a tech grad from the same era.
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:21 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
You're good
I remember talking about Fallujah
Is he flying charters or something like that these days? Haven't seen him in forever.
I remember talking about Fallujah
Is he flying charters or something like that these days? Haven't seen him in forever.
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:23 pm to flyingtexastiger
Yeah no she failed to maintain airspeed. The rerouting from Hobby Tower didn’t help though.
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:23 pm to upgrayedd
He’s flying for a Fortune 500 company out of BTR now. He’s doing well for himself. I haven’t spoken to him in a while either.
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:27 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
Nice.
He took me up with his instructor once in college in a little twin engine. Didn't realize they were gonna do emergency dives and turn off engines. Definitely got the blood pumping
He took me up with his instructor once in college in a little twin engine. Didn't realize they were gonna do emergency dives and turn off engines. Definitely got the blood pumping
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:33 pm to dragginass
One go the guys at IAH is a real dick works the mornings
Posted on 3/5/19 at 8:33 pm to When in Rome
That could be an engine cowling, but it could also be a flight control surface. Both use honeycomb and composite materials in their design for weight savings.
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