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re: Pelicans Trade Rumors and Chatter
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:48 pm to shel311
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:48 pm to shel311
Sorry for another post, but another point on the Zion ORTG when he's on/off...
Since around the IST or maybe a tad later is when we've seen a bit of a shift to less BI centric offense.
Since the Lakers game, Zion's net rating is +5.9. Not sure how that breaks down offensively, but with it being that high, I'd imagine that means we've seen that improvement in the offense and with Zion coinciding to BI's usage rate going down.
Not sure if I said that same thing in this thread or another, but is that just a coincidence? I do not think so. Especially when you consider we played probably our best stretch of ball in this 5 year span last season when BI was out. It seems more like a trend IMO where we get better offensively when BI's usage lowers or is out entirely
Pels are 4-7 when BI takes 20 more shots in a game.
Pels are 7-4 when BI takes 12 or less shots in a game.
Since around the IST or maybe a tad later is when we've seen a bit of a shift to less BI centric offense.
Since the Lakers game, Zion's net rating is +5.9. Not sure how that breaks down offensively, but with it being that high, I'd imagine that means we've seen that improvement in the offense and with Zion coinciding to BI's usage rate going down.
Not sure if I said that same thing in this thread or another, but is that just a coincidence? I do not think so. Especially when you consider we played probably our best stretch of ball in this 5 year span last season when BI was out. It seems more like a trend IMO where we get better offensively when BI's usage lowers or is out entirely
Pels are 4-7 when BI takes 20 more shots in a game.
Pels are 7-4 when BI takes 12 or less shots in a game.
This post was edited on 1/16/24 at 12:51 pm
1
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:50 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
What other #2 option leads their team in shot attempts?
What other #2 option gets announced last in the starting lineup? Gets put center position in the huge team photo up on the wall in the practice facility? This is an organizational issue. Griff, Willie, and the organization as a whole has set him up to be the best player and the driver of the culture. Both Griff and Willie have said so publicly. "Brandon sets the tone with his hard work." "We want Brandon to have the ball in his hands and be the decision maker for this offense."
I was very disappointed when they had these comments in the preseason. I truly believe that this contributed to Zion's slow start to the season as much as anything. An organization needs to empower and embolden their best player in this way. This organization has put a lot of investment into an 8 year veteran who is a 1 time all star who has led this team to a 122-130 all time record when he as played (Zion is 76-70). This might be the biggest reason that a clean break and a trade is needed.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:00 pm to shel311
quote:
But mainly, that list taking out PF/C is leaving off, from a quick look, about 25-30 dudes who are #1 or #2 options on teams, so if you're adding those dudes back, then it goes back to BI being in that tier around 60th best in TS%. So if you want to say all of the top 60 proves that he's a #2, sure. But it also proves he's on the wrong side of things, being on the least efficient side of #1 and #2s.
So you want to compare BI as our #1 option to Austin Reeves as the 3rd or 4th option?
Take Anthony Davis or Lebron off the court and see how good Austin Reeves is as the #2 option. We are all literally wishing on this happening any day now so that the Lakers collapse in the standings and we get a top 10 pick.
You show me a list of 25-30 similar players, who aren't the all nba #1 option or #3 option that have TS% better than BI.
Here's a list of players from each team based on standings right now:
Celtics - Jaylen Brown
Bucks - Middleton
Sixers - Maxey
Cavs - Garland
Heat - Herro (not really a clear #2)
Indy - who cares
Knicks - Brunson
Magic - Franz Wagner
Bulls - who cares, but i guess Coby White
Nets - who cares they suck
Hawks - no clue who their #2 is, but i guess Dejounte
Raptors - who cares they suck
Hornets - who cares they suck
Wizards - who cares they suck
Minny - #2 is a big (P.S. BI has a higher TS% than Edwards)
OKC - I think Jalen Williams is taking that role
Nuggets - Murray
Clippers - PG
Kings - you could say Monk maybe, or you can compare him to Fox
Mavs - Kyrie
Suns - they have two legit #1 guys
Jazz - Clarkson or Sexton, doesnt' matter b/c neither of them are legit #2 guys on a great team.
Lakers - #2 is a big
Rockets - who cares
Warriors - who cares they suck now
Grizzlies - Bane
Blazers - who cares they suck
Spurs - who cares they suck
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:05 pm to ThePistol
quote:
What other #2 option gets announced last in the starting lineup? Gets put center position in the huge team photo up on the wall in the practice facility? This is an organizational issue. Griff, Willie, and the organization as a whole has set him up to be the best player and the driver of the culture. Both Griff and Willie have said so publicly. "Brandon sets the tone with his hard work." "We want Brandon to have the ball in his hands and be the decision maker for this offense."
I was very disappointed when they had these comments in the preseason. I truly believe that this contributed to Zion's slow start to the season as much as anything. An organization needs to empower and embolden their best player in this way. This organization has put a lot of investment into an 8 year veteran who is a 1 time all star who has led this team to a 122-130 all time record when he as played (Zion is 76-70). This might be the biggest reason that a clean break and a trade is needed.
I agree with all of that.
The organization needs to shift its entire mindset to Zion being the #1. If Zion isn't the #1 then what the frick is the point of having him, because i guarantee you him sitting in the corner while BI dribbles into yet another midrange shot is helping neither BI nor Zion.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:05 pm to shel311
quote:
Sorry for another post, but another point on the Zion ORTG when he's on/off...
Since around the IST or maybe a tad later is when we've seen a bit of a shift to less BI centric offense.
Since the Lakers game, Zion's net rating is +5.9. Not sure how that breaks down offensively, but with it being that high, I'd imagine that means we've seen that improvement in the offense and with Zion coinciding to BI's usage rate going down.
Not sure if I said that same thing in this thread or another, but is that just a coincidence? I do not think so. Especially when you consider we played probably our best stretch of ball in this 5 year span last season when BI was out. It seems more like a trend IMO where we get better offensively when BI's usage lowers or is out entirely
Pels are 4-7 when BI takes 20 more shots in a game.
Pels are 7-4 when BI takes 12 or less shots in a game.
i'm with you on all of that.
I'm not trying to defend BI so much. I'm open to trading him. I just wish he was more of our #2 and Zion was more #1, but Zion's fat arse wasn't capable of that to start the season b/c he was so out of shape. Zion being the #1 should make BI even more efficient than he already is.
That still doesn't solve the issue of what to do on the last play of the game, as both haven't been good.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:17 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Zion being the #1 should make BI even more efficient than he already is.
That still doesn't solve the issue of what to do on the last play of the game, as both haven't been good.
Except it never really has led to BI being more efficient. He really, really struggles to play off the ball. Part of that is his reluctance and failures as a spot up shooter.
How many times can you remember Zion getting the last shot or being the driver of the offense late in games this season? Hell, to optimize that, the team would have to play multiple shooters late in the game and we know that hasn't happened much. This team has no idea what an optimized Zion can do at the end of close games because they haven't seen it since December 2022 when the BI option wasn't on the table.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:24 pm to TeddyPadillac
I removed all the examples of where you said the #2 was a big or the team sucked and/or didn't have a legit #2, and the results are below:
Celtics - Jaylen Brown - Better than BI
Bucks - Middleton - Better than BI
Sixers - Maxey - Better than BI
Cavs - Garland
Knicks - Brunson - Better than BI
Magic - Franz Wagner
Bulls - who cares, but i guess Coby White - Better than BI
Hawks - no clue who their #2 is, but i guess Dejounte
OKC - I think Jalen Williams is taking that role - Better than BI
Nuggets - Murray - Better than BI
Clippers - PG - Better than BI
Kings - you could say Monk maybe, or you can compare him to Fox - Both better than BI
Mavs - Kyrie - Better than BI
Suns - they have two legit #1 guys - Better than BI
Grizzlies - Bane - Better than BI
15 dudes, 12 have a higher TS% than BI
So again, BI is at the bottom of #2s in terms of scoring efficiency AND is a ball stopper, and the offense looks better lately when his usage has gone down, and the offense looked its best in 5 years when he was out, and so on and so forth...
Celtics - Jaylen Brown - Better than BI
Bucks - Middleton - Better than BI
Sixers - Maxey - Better than BI
Cavs - Garland
Knicks - Brunson - Better than BI
Magic - Franz Wagner
Bulls - who cares, but i guess Coby White - Better than BI
Hawks - no clue who their #2 is, but i guess Dejounte
OKC - I think Jalen Williams is taking that role - Better than BI
Nuggets - Murray - Better than BI
Clippers - PG - Better than BI
Kings - you could say Monk maybe, or you can compare him to Fox - Both better than BI
Mavs - Kyrie - Better than BI
Suns - they have two legit #1 guys - Better than BI
Grizzlies - Bane - Better than BI
15 dudes, 12 have a higher TS% than BI
So again, BI is at the bottom of #2s in terms of scoring efficiency AND is a ball stopper, and the offense looks better lately when his usage has gone down, and the offense looked its best in 5 years when he was out, and so on and so forth...
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:26 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:Yea, I think our disagreement is you think BI can be a legit #2, and I don't think he can/.
i'm with you on all of that.
I'm not trying to defend BI so much. I'm open to trading him. I just wish he was more of our #2 and Zion was more #1, but Zion's fat arse wasn't capable of that to start the season b/c he was so out of shape. Zion being the #1 should make BI even more efficient than he already is.
I just don't think he improves our team at a level worth of his contract value and that for the right trade/pieces coming back, I do think this team can improve if BI were not on the team.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:28 pm to shel311
We're kind of stuck in purgatory for now.
Zion hasn't earned the right to be no. 1 because he's so immature and out of shape.
Ingram is the no. 1 by default even though he's not really good enough to be a no. 1.
We argue lineups, coaching, shot selection, etc.
In the end it always comes back to the same thing.
The team goes as Zion goes.
If he matures and becomes what he can be, we'll be fine.
If he doesn't, the rest is just moving chairs around to improve from 9th seed to 5th.
Zion hasn't earned the right to be no. 1 because he's so immature and out of shape.
Ingram is the no. 1 by default even though he's not really good enough to be a no. 1.
We argue lineups, coaching, shot selection, etc.
In the end it always comes back to the same thing.
The team goes as Zion goes.
If he matures and becomes what he can be, we'll be fine.
If he doesn't, the rest is just moving chairs around to improve from 9th seed to 5th.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:34 pm to ghost2most
quote:
ion hasn't earned the right to be no. 1 because he's so immature and out of shape.
Ingram is the no. 1 by default even though he's not really good enough to be a no. 1.
We argue lineups, coaching, shot selection, etc.
In the end it always comes back to the same thing.
The team goes as Zion goes.
If he matures and becomes what he can be, we'll be fine.
If he doesn't, the rest is just moving chairs around to improve from 9th seed to 5th.
100% agree, and i agree Shell that BI needs to change how he plays a bit if he wants to be a better #2.
BI playing like a #1 is not what this team needs, but he has been a really good distributor with the ball in his hands this year as his assists are up, and there's no reason he can't keep his assists up with less dribbling. One thing i hate in basketball is wasted dribbling, and BI is the king of that. If you can't do what you need to do in 2-3 dribbles, then you dribbled too much, unless you're Luka or peak CP3
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:36 pm to shel311
quote:
Yea, I think our disagreement is you think BI can be a legit #2, and I don't think he can/.
I think he can if Zion reaches that Jokic/Luka/Embiid level as a star. The problem is he's no where near that. Even the ZIon we are seeing today, which is in much better shape than to start the year, he's still just a 1a with BI 1b option currently. It needs to be a clear Zion is #1, and he's not there.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:41 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:You either are a casual NBA fan or delusional if you think there is any truth to anything you just said.
BI is a pathetic player. There’s not going to be a lot of team knocking down the door for ball hog midrange dominant player. Those players are not valuable
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:44 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:I don't think Willie or Griffin think of BI as a #2 so why should BI?
Exactly. BI would be a great number 2 if he accepted that role but he hasnt and it's a huge issue.
Why is BI taking the most shots on the team? Zion is attempting a career low in shots. If we arent going to treat Zion as the #1 then what the frick are we doing?
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:49 pm to Soggymoss
quote:Who is the 6MOY candidate capable of averaging 20 off the bench? Smith shoots 40% from 3 on 2 shots a game and is a career 32% 3pt shooter. Buddy is a fantastic 3pt shooter but has proven to pout when he does not get the ball and his defense may be worse than Hawk. Terrible trade.
ml
Framework means more to be added such as draft picks, but that is definitely not a pathetic return when you get a 6MOY candidate that is capable of averaging 20ppg off the bench, along with 2 40% 3 point shooters and then add in 2-4 draft picks or whatever you can squeeze
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:53 pm to shel311
quote:BI is clearly a legit #2. The only reason I would even consider trading him is because of his upcoming extension. I do not see a way to pay him $50 million a year on this team.
Yea, I think our disagreement is you think BI can be a legit #2, and I don't think he can/.
I just don't think he improves our team at a level worth of his contract value and that for the right trade/pieces coming back, I do think this team can improve if BI were not on the team.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 1:57 pm to NOSHAU
quote:
BI is clearly a legit #2. The only reason I would even consider trading him is because of his upcoming extension. I do not see a way to pay him $50 million a year on this team.
i agree.
I don't think he should get paid that either, but unfortunately that's the way of the NBA, and he's going to get it.
BI should not be paid the same as Tatum. Jaylen Brown shouldn't either.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 2:06 pm to NOSHAU
quote:
I don't think Willie or Griffin think of BI as a #2 so why should BI?
that is the problem.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 2:11 pm to TeddyPadillac
I agree with a lot of what is being said here. The two main issues here are:
This organization has treated Ingram as the #1. Zion needs to be empowered to be the #1 and the organization needs to create a clear hierarchy. Every organization does this. Ours has been way too hazy on their messaging. The team's ceiling is with Zion. Let's start building towards that now!
Ingram's extension is scary. He will want max money and this team has treated him as a max player. A max contract for Ingram will be an albatross for this team moving forward. Jaylen Brown was similar in Boston, they just don't mind paying the tax and being a second apron team so they still added Kristaps and Jrue in the offseason. We don't have that luxury.
This organization has treated Ingram as the #1. Zion needs to be empowered to be the #1 and the organization needs to create a clear hierarchy. Every organization does this. Ours has been way too hazy on their messaging. The team's ceiling is with Zion. Let's start building towards that now!
Ingram's extension is scary. He will want max money and this team has treated him as a max player. A max contract for Ingram will be an albatross for this team moving forward. Jaylen Brown was similar in Boston, they just don't mind paying the tax and being a second apron team so they still added Kristaps and Jrue in the offseason. We don't have that luxury.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 2:18 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
i agree. I don't think he should get paid that either, but unfortunately that's the way of the NBA, and he's going to get it. BI should not be paid the same as Tatum. Jaylen Brown shouldn't either.
I agree, someone will pay BI that. I don’t want to be that team. This team is less than the sum of its parts, because the parts don’t fit.
I would trade BI for Claxton, DFS and some 1sts. See if Detroit would trade you Bojan, Duren, and a 1st. Hell I’d trade him to Dallas if I could get lively, and hardaway
Posted on 1/16/24 at 2:37 pm to NOSHAU
Never heard of Bennedict Mathurin? The guy that was a rookie sensation last season for the Pacers? Someone alot of people i t he league were wondering how they could get?
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