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2
Posted on 1/16/24 at 10:15 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
BI is a #2 guy on any team in the nba
Talent and skill wise, absolutely. But he certainly hasn't accepted being the number 2 guy here and didn't really accept being the number 2 guy next to LeBron. He didn't even change the way he plays when he was on Team USA.
He can do everything on the basketball court. But he still refuses to do what the team needs. There may not be a good BI trade available before the deadline, but any trade is better than paying him 45 million to do the same things he is currently doing.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 10:21 am to mhasen1
quote:
Talent and skill wise, absolutely. But he certainly hasn't accepted being the number 2 guy here and didn't really accept being the number 2 guy next to LeBron. He didn't even change the way he plays when he was on Team USA.
He can do everything on the basketball court. But he still refuses to do what the team needs. There may not be a good BI trade available before the deadline, but any trade is better than paying him 45 million to do the same things he is currently doing.
Exactly. BI would be a great number 2 if he accepted that role but he hasnt and it's a huge issue.
Why is BI taking the most shots on the team? Zion is attempting a career low in shots. If we arent going to treat Zion as the #1 then what the frick are we doing?
Posted on 1/16/24 at 10:37 am to Balsamic_duck
quote:
Why is BI taking the most shots on the team?
I'm not concerned that he is first in the team in shots. It's the ball stopping and quality of shots.
He wants to be the facilitator, but he doesn't look to facilitate until his option to score is taken away. He can't have it both ways. He needs to commit to being a scorer playing off of others, or a facilitator focused on putting others in the best position to score.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 10:38 am to Balsamic_duck
quote:
Why is BI taking the most shots on the team? Zion is attempting a career low in shots. If we arent going to treat Zion as the #1 then what the frick are we doing?
Why do we just blame BI for this?
Blame Zion. Blame Willie.
I'm certainly not going to blame a guy that works his arse off like BI does, and then wants the ball in the game.
What happened last night after Zion missed 1 of 2 free throws and Kyrie made both and they went up 3 with 14 seconds left? They gave the ball to CJ, walked it up the court, Zion jogged up the court and did nothing, Trey sat in the corner and did nothing, and CJ gave it up to BI after doing nothing and BI had to take a tough shot, and he looked like he didn't want to take that shot as the play unfolded considering he made no attempt to go get the ball from the get go, which is expected considering he was having a bad game.
What should have happened is Zion should have taken the ball and took off like a bull do the goal to get a quick 2, but he was scared to go get the ball b/c he'd get fouled.
That failure falls on the coach more than anything, but you'd expect your star player to just say frick it and go get the ball and make something happen, and neither one did that.
What sucks is we've made the playoffs once since we had BI and Zion, and Zion has never played in them. BI was unbelieavable in his only playoff experience.
I"m not interested in making decisions based on the regular season. What do you provide come playoff time, which is essentially what do you provide in the clutch in the regular season. Zion has been less than impressive in the clutch this year, either not being involved or turning it over more often than not.
I am not opposed to trading BI. Hell i'm not opposed to trading Zion. But if either of them go, we have to have a better team right now and for the future, and trading BI for role players with no upside is simply not an option.
Someone has to be the guy on our team to take over games in the clutch, and BI has done that more than Zion has. And i agree BI isnt' great at it, but if you trade him, you have to get a guy back that can take that role at the end of games.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 10:42 am to mhasen1
quote:Yea, ultimately the number is not really the relevant part.
I'm not concerned that he is first in the team in shots. It's the ball stopping and quality of shots.
BI can shoot 20 shots per game if he can hit with a .600 TS%.
But on that note, I spoke a lot as recently as a couple of weeks ago how BI had 2 straight months of a TS% over .600 and was playing some of his most efficient ball. But this recent cold streak he's on has undone all of that. His TS% for the season is now down to .577, slightly below league average.
He needs to get back to taking more 3s and attacking the rim more.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 10:45 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:Blame Zion for BI taking inefficient shots?
Why do we just blame BI for this?
Blame Zion.
quote:He was good, not unbelievable. We really do misremember that series. There were very high highs for him but also low lows.
BI was unbelieavable in his only playoff experience.
He was not consistent. Overall good, but you can't have poor shooting games in half of a series and still consider it an "unbelievable" performance IMO.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 11:24 am to mhasen1
quote:
I'm not concerned that he is first in the team in shots. It's the ball stopping and quality of shots.
What other #2 option leads their team in shot attempts?
Go down the list of teams.
If you're a #1 option you get the most shots.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 11:29 am to NOSHAU
quote:ml
What? That is a pathetic return for BI.
Framework means more to be added such as draft picks, but that is definitely not a pathetic return when you get a 6MOY candidate that is capable of averaging 20ppg off the bench, along with 2 40% 3 point shooters and then add in 2-4 draft picks or whatever you can squeeze
This post was edited on 1/16/24 at 11:35 am
Posted on 1/16/24 at 11:38 am to shel311
quote:
BI can shoot 20 shots per game if he can hit with a .600 TS%.
So you want him to do something just about every other similar player in the NBA can't do?
BI has been at 58% or higher TS% in 4 of the 5 years he's been here, with an average of 57.7% in those 5 years. He's at 58.0% the last 2 years.
Jamal Murray 56.5% last 5 years, 57.6 last 2 years
Jaylen Brown 58.1% last 5 years, 58.2 last 2 years
Middleton 58.9% last 5 years, and was 58.2 in the 2 years before his injury and when the Bucks won the championship.
Klay Thompson has acheived 60% once in his career, and is a career 57.4% TS% guy.
But sure, lets call BI terrible and inefficient b/c he can't do something the other #2 guys in the league on championship caliber teams can't do either.
BI is not KD, or Jayson Tatum, or Jimmy Butler, or Devin Booker, or Steph Curry, so don't compare him to them.
What we need is Zion to be the main man on our team, the super efficient star, and the more of that burden he takes on, the less of that burden falls on BI.
Tobias Harris has had the highest TS% of his career the last two years. WHy is that? B/C Maxey is taking away the burden of him having to be the #2 guy and now he's just a catch and shoot guy with a hint of more to his game to excel as the #3 guy, like what Trey Murphy is.
BI can't be our #1 guys, Zion has to be that guy.
This team and BI would benefit from him taking less shots and Zion taking more, but that's not what the game plan is out there at the moment from the coaching staff.
I also think it would benefit us from having a true PG to guide Zion and BI to more efficient shots together, and have Trey take CJ's spot as the 3rd guy.
If we can't succeed as is, one of CJ/BI/Zion has to go this offseason for a player that fits the other two better.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 11:50 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
No. it wouldn't. Why would we want that? How does that make us better?
I agree, that’s not what I’m saying. I said:
quote:
The way some people act on here, you’d think we’d have to attach a first just to dump Ingram, but 2 FRPs for Turner would be a steal.
I’m pointing out that some people on this board don’t have a good handle on player valuations and have let their feelings toward BI’s fit cloud their judgement on his perceived value across the league. It’s a forest from the trees issue.
It does feel like it is time to fix the fit issues on this roster. I don’t think Willie has the ability to figure this roster out as currently constructed, and if we are keeping him, they have to make the rotations easier. I assume we are going to wait till this summer to do it though.
This post was edited on 1/16/24 at 12:04 pm
Posted on 1/16/24 at 11:57 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:CJ is doing it.
So you want him to do something just about every other similar player in the NBA can't do?
There's a shite ton of NBA players doing it. If you're going to be a bit of a ball stopper on a team that looks great when the ball is moving, you better have elite efficiency to make your ball stopping worth it.
And yes, he's a solid facilitator, I'm not taking that away from him by saying he's a ball stopper, but he IS a ball stopper.
But ultimate, my comment you quoted was more of a comment in passing. Can we start with not being below league average TS%? Is that too much to ask for? For the last 3 years combined, BI has been a below average scorer. Surely, you don't think it's too much to ask for your #2 to be at least league average in efficiency.
quote:TERRIBLE!!!
But sure, lets call BI terrible and inefficient b/c he can't do something the other #2 guys in the league on championship caliber teams can't do either.
Let's try to stick to facts, and not overreact emotionally like you're doing here.
quote:Can we compare him to CJ or Colin Sexton or Austin Reaves, or Desmond Bane, or Quickley, or Brunson?
BI is not KD, or Jayson Tatum, or Jimmy Butler, or Devin Booker, or Steph Curry, so don't compare him to them.
YOu said he's a #2, so who are we comparing him to then? Because he also doesn't have TS% as high as those dudes, so..
quote:If you look at 3s per 36, I don't think a PG would help BI in any way. If he's not taking 3s or efficient shots more than Jose or Naji, that's not a PG problem. That's a BI problem.
I also think it would benefit us from having a true PG to guide Zion and BI to more efficient shots together, and have Trey take CJ's spot as the 3rd guy.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 11:59 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:Come on Teddy, here's the full quote, not what just the part you selected and ignored the rest:
No. it wouldn't. Why would we want that? How does that make us better?
quote:
The way some people act on here, you’d think we’d have to attach a first just to dump Ingram, but 2 FRPs for Turner would be a steal.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:04 pm to shel311
quote:
CJ is doing it.
yeah as the third guy.
Notice how i compared him to similar guard/forwards who are the #2 guy on a contending team, not the 3rd option, not the 1st option.
quote:
Can we start with not being below league average TS%?
What's league average for similar players? I'd bet money it isn't 60%, and it's probably more like 56-57%. I'm not going to compare BI to bigs, who drive the TS% up. Jarrett Allen is something like 67%. He and BI are no where near a similar comparison.
quote:
Let's try to stick to facts, and not overreact emotionally like you're doing here.
Let's trade him for shite from Brooklyn is an overreaction. Me calling him terrible is a reaction to that ridiculousness.
quote:
Can we compare him to CJ or Colin Sexton or Austin Reaves, or Desmond Bane, or Quickley, or Brunson?
Bane and Brunson, sure.
What was wrong with the guys i compared him too? You don't like looking at the clear cut #2 guy on a championship level team?
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:07 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:Again, you still took it out of context. It was in reference specifically to BI being a ball stopper on a team that always looks much better on offense when the ball is whipping around. Yes, if BI is a ball stopper, then you'll need a bump of extra efficiency from him to make up for the lost efficiency from the decrease in ball movement. I don't see anyone calling Murray a ball stopper. THere's a huge difference there in what that does to the offense in a negative way.
What's league average for similar players? I'd bet money it isn't 60%
Every single time we play a great offensive game, it's because the ball is flying around and not sticking.
This post was edited on 1/16/24 at 12:08 pm
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:32 pm to shel311
Trading BI for a rim protector and spreading his 17 shots per game to guys who take smart shots, and don't dribble the air out of the ball like CJ, zion, trey, herb and hawkins would do wonders for this team.
We have a ton of talent on this team. None of it fits though and that's why the starters suck as a lineup
We have a ton of talent on this team. None of it fits though and that's why the starters suck as a lineup
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:36 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:I could 100% be wrong, but I 100% believe this to be true.
Trading BI for a rim protector and spreading his 17 shots per game to guys who take smart shots, and don't dribble the air out of the ball like CJ, zion, trey, herb and hawkins would do wonders for this team.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:37 pm to shel311
quote:
Again, you still took it out of context. It was in reference specifically to BI being a ball stopper on a team that always looks much better on offense when the ball is whipping around.
So we'll ignore his nice TS% and instead say something that isn't quantifiable to prove a point? But let's try to quantify "ball stopper" theory.
If what you are saying is true, then we shoudl be able to look at what our offense looks like with him, and without him, and we'd be better without him. Let's do that.
BI on the court - ORtg of 118.6
BI off the court - ORtg of 117.7
rather insignificant, but nonetheless, we are better offensively with him on the court, and worse with him off the court, which has been the case every year he's been here.
Zion is pretty much teh same way.
118.0 on compared to 118.8 off.
I think both are like this b/c they are staggering their minutes more so one of them is always on the court. In previous years the difference for on/off for BI was bigger, likely b/c Zion wasn't playing when he was off so the drop off was bigger. We are finally seeing them play together for a longer period of time.
quote:
Every single time we play a great offensive game, it's because the ball is flying around and not sticking.
I get what you're saying, but that's not what happens on any team in the clutch. That's how you play to improve efficiency and averages over a long period of time.
No different than the modern approach to hitting in baseball.
WHat happens in the clutch is different than what happened in the first 45 minutes of the game. You have to have a closer, and while BI has closed plenty of games for us, i do'nt like him being our #1 option to close games. Zion hasn't been any better. That's what the problem is with this team. You can't just whip the ball around and hope for the best in the last 15 seconds of a game. Somone has to step up and get either himself or a teammate a good look at the goal.
This post was edited on 1/16/24 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:39 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:To expand on this a bit more, if I simply take out PF and C, BI is 32nd in the NBA in TS%. You may think that helps your side but there are dudes like Tatum and Lebron who are listed at PF that aren't just your regular bigs that are low usage dudes who are efficient.
Notice how i compared him to similar guard/forwards who are the #2 guy on a contending team, not the 3rd option, not the 1st option.
But mainly, that list taking out PF/C is leaving off, from a quick look, about 25-30 dudes who are #1 or #2 options on teams, so if you're adding those dudes back, then it goes back to BI being in that tier around 60th best in TS%. So if you want to say all of the top 60 proves that he's a #2, sure. But it also proves he's on the wrong side of things, being on the least efficient side of #1 and #2s.
Posted on 1/16/24 at 12:43 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:I didn't ignore it, BI's "nice" TS% does not exist, so there's nothing to ignore.
So we'll ignore his nice TS%
See my post right above that proves this.
quote:So he's a #2, but the offense is only marginally worse when he's off court? Not really a ringing endorsement for a #2, no?
But let's try to quantify "ball stopper" theory.
If what you are saying is true, then we shoudl be able to look at what our offense looks like with him, and without him, and we'd be better without him. Let's do that.
BI on the court - ORtg of 118.6
BI off the court - ORtg of 117.7
quote:Again, your words there, that seems rather telling that our team shows no significant drop off without our #2.
rather insignificant
quote:Zion certainly has his only set of issues this season, many are on Zion, but playing him as the #2 and not in shooter lineups has a large affect on this too.
Zion is pretty much teh same way.
118.0 on compared to 118.8 off.
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