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re: How does the roster improve with ONLY major trades? (old thread remix)
Posted on 9/13/20 at 5:56 pm to Soggymoss
Posted on 9/13/20 at 5:56 pm to Soggymoss
Very well done. Everything you said is pretty much dead on. Of course it is shaded in the best possible light from the Pelicans POV. But I hope you are right and that is the way it all goes down. I think we are hoping that Ingram doesn't hold any hard feelings. But he is human and you never know how players process that type of situation..
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Posted on 9/14/20 at 1:23 pm to Dantheman504
Jrue to Suns for Rubio and Mikal Bridges.
Pels get 3&D wing in Bridges to play alongside Ingram . Great defender , plays hard , smart , and still improving.
Rubio brings a veteran presence that you’d lose with Jrue. Smart player , known to be someone who thinks the game at a high level . Very good defender . Similar to Rondo a few years ago , any offense you get from him is a bonus.
Suns get immediate production on both ends from Jrue to help them make the playoffs
If you want to get real interesting , make it a 3 teamer with OKC in which the bread and butter of the trade would be the following :
Pels get: CP3, Bridges
Suns get : Lonzo, Jrue
Thunder get: Rubio, fillers, suns pick
Pels get 3&D wing in Bridges to play alongside Ingram . Great defender , plays hard , smart , and still improving.
Rubio brings a veteran presence that you’d lose with Jrue. Smart player , known to be someone who thinks the game at a high level . Very good defender . Similar to Rondo a few years ago , any offense you get from him is a bonus.
Suns get immediate production on both ends from Jrue to help them make the playoffs
If you want to get real interesting , make it a 3 teamer with OKC in which the bread and butter of the trade would be the following :
Pels get: CP3, Bridges
Suns get : Lonzo, Jrue
Thunder get: Rubio, fillers, suns pick
Posted on 9/14/20 at 2:13 pm to AboveTheRim
That one is at least somewhat interesting and different.
I'm sure our resident Suns fan would bristle at parting with Bridges.
I'm sure our resident Suns fan would bristle at parting with Bridges.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 3:20 pm to Fun Bunch
I can see that. We all like our young guys and project how great they will be. but Jrue is a better option for them if they are all in on making the playoffs next season . He takes scoring and defensive pressure off of Booker, has familiarity with Monty , can initiate with Ayton out of P&R, etc.
Additionally they have to make a decision on Oubre . So you’ll know if Mikal is the guy Or not based on how they approach the oubre contract situation IMO.
Additionally they have to make a decision on Oubre . So you’ll know if Mikal is the guy Or not based on how they approach the oubre contract situation IMO.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 3:45 pm to AboveTheRim
Can someone tell me the advantage of a trade for CP3 other than his potential leadership for Zion/ BI?
I mean he is good but with losing assets in the process it wouldn't bring us closer to a championship.
So we have our players and then CP3 @40 million.
Why do people think we would be in a better position with him in 2 years > a bunch of B level role players and cap space that we can use as future trade assets?
CP3 won't be worth much in a few years and we would be giving up assets to secure 2 years of potential leadership thats literally it.
I'm just saying i'd much rather several assets like Lavert, Dinwiddie, Markkanen, Gallinari,....etc to test out the waters for a few years and use as valuable trade assets > 2 years of CP3.
I mean he is good but with losing assets in the process it wouldn't bring us closer to a championship.
So we have our players and then CP3 @40 million.
Why do people think we would be in a better position with him in 2 years > a bunch of B level role players and cap space that we can use as future trade assets?
CP3 won't be worth much in a few years and we would be giving up assets to secure 2 years of potential leadership thats literally it.
I'm just saying i'd much rather several assets like Lavert, Dinwiddie, Markkanen, Gallinari,....etc to test out the waters for a few years and use as valuable trade assets > 2 years of CP3.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 4:16 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Can someone tell me the advantage of a trade for CP3 other than his potential leadership for Zion/ BI?
Well he did just lead OKC to the playoffs and will get MVP votes. JJ was the only vocal leader this team had. CP3 + JJ should really set a much stronger tone, especially with the departure of Gentry.
quote:
Why do people think we would be in a better position with him in 2 years > a bunch of B level role players and cap space that we can use as future trade assets?
The trade I've been pushing sends out Lonzo and Jrue and brings back CP3 and 2 1sts. You get the 2 year benefits of CP3, the #8 this year to hopefully draft a future starter and a 2021 1st from Minnesota that is top 3 protected next year and unprotected in 2022. If you can make that trade happen it's a pretty good balance between Win Now, Mentorship, and Future Assets.
This post was edited on 9/14/20 at 4:19 pm
Posted on 9/14/20 at 4:21 pm to Dantheman504
I’ll speak for myself here and let others give their input :
In my example above with the suns And OKC we aren’t giving up much in the way of assets , just Jrue and Lonzo.
The decision to part with Jrue is more about getting a return for him while you can , especially since it seems he will be coveted by other teams this summer. IMO Lonzo isn’t much of an asset ...he just a high profile enough throw in for Phoenix to make the deal work and give them a chance to get something out of him .
I like Jrue but I have little doubt in my mind that CP does more to help this team become winners short term than Jrue does . He’s just a winning player, period. Adding CP automatically makes the team relevant in a similar way to what Tom Brady is to the Bucs (minus the championships). So now the future core are playing meaningful games on a night to night basis .
On the flip side I’m not shipping off future picks or all of our youth for 2 years of Paul. But if there is a 3 team deal in which we can get Paul without mortgaging the future , I’m all for it.
All that said, I don’t expect it which I why I threw out the simple Jrue for Rubio and Bridges first.
In my example above with the suns And OKC we aren’t giving up much in the way of assets , just Jrue and Lonzo.
The decision to part with Jrue is more about getting a return for him while you can , especially since it seems he will be coveted by other teams this summer. IMO Lonzo isn’t much of an asset ...he just a high profile enough throw in for Phoenix to make the deal work and give them a chance to get something out of him .
I like Jrue but I have little doubt in my mind that CP does more to help this team become winners short term than Jrue does . He’s just a winning player, period. Adding CP automatically makes the team relevant in a similar way to what Tom Brady is to the Bucs (minus the championships). So now the future core are playing meaningful games on a night to night basis .
On the flip side I’m not shipping off future picks or all of our youth for 2 years of Paul. But if there is a 3 team deal in which we can get Paul without mortgaging the future , I’m all for it.
All that said, I don’t expect it which I why I threw out the simple Jrue for Rubio and Bridges first.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 4:39 pm to TigerinATL
The biggest place we differ is with draft picks I guess. Once again I just don't think we need to trade away Jrue for draft picks. Even tho we get CP3 we essentially trade Jrue for no future players. I just don't think we should rely on mid rd 1st to fill out our roster.
We already will have what 6 mid rd firsts? So yay now we have 2 or 3 more then what? CP3 won't be there for any of that development and once again we are banking on him to create leaders out of Zion/ BI that must be done anyway. I'd rather put players to grow around BI/ Zion > a team sucking CP3s teet and praying half their picks are worth a shite after he leaves.
We also don't know what OKC does without CP3. What if they are arse next year and their players can't get the same thing going without him? Then would it have been worth it?
We already will have what 6 mid rd firsts? So yay now we have 2 or 3 more then what? CP3 won't be there for any of that development and once again we are banking on him to create leaders out of Zion/ BI that must be done anyway. I'd rather put players to grow around BI/ Zion > a team sucking CP3s teet and praying half their picks are worth a shite after he leaves.
We also don't know what OKC does without CP3. What if they are arse next year and their players can't get the same thing going without him? Then would it have been worth it?
Posted on 9/14/20 at 4:54 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
I just don't think we should rely on mid rd 1st to fill out our roster.
I'm not talking about mid 1sts, I'm talking about top 10 picks. #8 this year and that Minnesota pick will probably be top 10 too, maybe even top 5.
quote:
I'd rather put players to grow around BI/ Zion > a team sucking CP3s teet and praying half their picks are worth a shite after he leaves.
We need more JJs to get in Zion and Ingram's face and won't be afraid to tell the faces of the franchise that their shite does indeed stink. You want to trade away JJ for "better players". I understand why, but we also disagree on the value of the leadership portion of the equation. I want to keep JJ and add another guy that can play and lead vocally, even if that means trading Jrue.
We don't need to find the #3 guy now, we can trade for them in a few years. What we need to happen over the next 2 years if for Zion and Ingram to be challenged and develop into dominant players. You are right in that they probably won't do that by losing. Taking a step back for more future assets is not the answer, but they also need someone to teach them how to win.
This post was edited on 9/14/20 at 4:56 pm
Posted on 9/14/20 at 5:04 pm to TigerinATL
Touche sir. I don't think we disagree with the value of leadership, but disagree with the value of that leadership. We can find that leadership for alot less than 40 million a year and build our team in the process.
I don't want to waste 2 years teaching our players strictly leadership when they can learn it and start to develop players along with them in the process.
Also out of curiosity how are you suppose to " trade for that 3rd star" in the future if once again JJ/ Jrue would be gone and CP3 would walk? The answer once again is that we wouldn't, or would be banking that our drafted players are enough to hit. Which isn't a lot of certainty.
Edit: Only CP3 might have THAT level of leadership but its not worth 40 mil, less assets, 2 years of a full team growing together, and the chance that everyone takes a backseat.
I don't want to waste 2 years teaching our players strictly leadership when they can learn it and start to develop players along with them in the process.
Also out of curiosity how are you suppose to " trade for that 3rd star" in the future if once again JJ/ Jrue would be gone and CP3 would walk? The answer once again is that we wouldn't, or would be banking that our drafted players are enough to hit. Which isn't a lot of certainty.
Edit: Only CP3 might have THAT level of leadership but its not worth 40 mil, less assets, 2 years of a full team growing together, and the chance that everyone takes a backseat.
This post was edited on 9/14/20 at 5:09 pm
Posted on 9/14/20 at 5:22 pm to Dantheman504
I agree with you on the fact that we need to return players if we move on from Jrue with picks or without.
Everyone gets excited about future picks, it’s the roulette table .
Picks are necessary in order to complete deals for big time players, but you don’t complete deals if you don’t have a player to trade with the picks . You need good players to Be able to trade for better players if trading your way into a Star is the end game.
Everyone gets excited about future picks, it’s the roulette table .
Picks are necessary in order to complete deals for big time players, but you don’t complete deals if you don’t have a player to trade with the picks . You need good players to Be able to trade for better players if trading your way into a Star is the end game.
This post was edited on 9/14/20 at 5:24 pm
Posted on 9/14/20 at 5:28 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
I don't want to waste 2 years teaching our players strictly leadership when they can learn it and start to develop players along with them in the process.
"Teaching leadership"? What about winning? I think that a core of CP3, BI, and Zion is a team that at least makes the 2nd round of the playoffs. Tell me what players OKC had this year who are as talented as Zion and BI.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 5:43 pm to GOP_Tiger
Gallinari just doesn't get the respect he deserves. He had a great year. SGA is about to be an all star. Schroeder could have been 6th man of the year. With Paul, that's 4 guys averaging 18+ppg. Plus they all, along with Adams, gave effort on defense. Not a difficult formula..
Posted on 9/14/20 at 5:51 pm to GOP_Tiger
Oh boy 2 2nd round exits! No it doesn't win us a championship and not to mention we wouldn't have a Steven Adams or much help at shooting.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 6:16 pm to Dantheman504
I’ll take 2 second round exits these next 2 seasons, are you expecting to win a championship in these next two seasons? 
Posted on 9/14/20 at 6:20 pm to Epic Cajun
Thats not what I meant but yes I'd also take 2 2nd round exits! I'm saying the team we field by trading Jrue and paying CP3 40 mil doesn't win us a championship and doesn't help get us a future 3rd star to do it. It also stops us for 2 years from adding other young assets and letting them grow with our stars.
This post was edited on 9/14/20 at 6:27 pm
Posted on 9/14/20 at 6:53 pm to Dantheman504
I guess my point is that, paying Jrue 5 years 150+ mill also isn’t going to give us a championship team. The intangibles that CP could add to BI and Zion would be worth it in itself, no to mention, some of these deals include us receiving picks in the trade as well.
Options to get the 3rd piece of the puzzle: trade Jrue, trade assets, draft player. Those are the only 3 realistic options IMO. Trading Jrue for Paul could possibly add a temporary 3rd piece, and get us more draft picks that could be either used as lottery tickets, or be packaged for the 3rd piece. The realistic time to make a Jrue trade is this summer because he will most likely opt out next summer (barring injury, and in that case we will be kicking ourselves for not moving him this summer anyway).
ETA: how many young players do we want to add to the roster? We already have Zion, BI, Lonzo, Hart, NAW, and Hayes. We will most likely be adding another young piece this summer with the 13th pick. At that point half of our roster will be younger than 22 (I think that’s about right).
Options to get the 3rd piece of the puzzle: trade Jrue, trade assets, draft player. Those are the only 3 realistic options IMO. Trading Jrue for Paul could possibly add a temporary 3rd piece, and get us more draft picks that could be either used as lottery tickets, or be packaged for the 3rd piece. The realistic time to make a Jrue trade is this summer because he will most likely opt out next summer (barring injury, and in that case we will be kicking ourselves for not moving him this summer anyway).
ETA: how many young players do we want to add to the roster? We already have Zion, BI, Lonzo, Hart, NAW, and Hayes. We will most likely be adding another young piece this summer with the 13th pick. At that point half of our roster will be younger than 22 (I think that’s about right).
This post was edited on 9/14/20 at 6:57 pm
Posted on 9/14/20 at 7:05 pm to Epic Cajun
The only Jrue trades I would make would be (in no particular order)
Pacers: Deal centered around Brogdon and Turner
Heat: Deal centered around Herro and Robinson
6ers: Deal centered around Smith and Thybulle
Nugs: Deal centered around Murray (wouldn't happen)
Warriors: Deal centered around #2 and Minnesota 1st
If I couldn't get that kind of value out of him this offseason, I hold on to him.
Pacers: Deal centered around Brogdon and Turner
Heat: Deal centered around Herro and Robinson
6ers: Deal centered around Smith and Thybulle
Nugs: Deal centered around Murray (wouldn't happen)
Warriors: Deal centered around #2 and Minnesota 1st
If I couldn't get that kind of value out of him this offseason, I hold on to him.
This post was edited on 9/14/20 at 7:07 pm
Posted on 9/14/20 at 8:00 pm to NannerB_EazyPellyBoi
Done
There are picks involved in here obviously. We pick between the GS pick this year, or their Minny pick next year.
Tom Haberstroh knows GS well and he was pretty matter of fact about them going after Jrue this offseason.
We send 13 to OKC. But their main incentive is clearing Paul's deal, and flipping Lowry's expiring at the deadline for even more assets.
Toronto brings Wiggins home and takes on Lonzo as a Lowry/FVV replacement.
There are picks involved in here obviously. We pick between the GS pick this year, or their Minny pick next year.
Tom Haberstroh knows GS well and he was pretty matter of fact about them going after Jrue this offseason.
We send 13 to OKC. But their main incentive is clearing Paul's deal, and flipping Lowry's expiring at the deadline for even more assets.
Toronto brings Wiggins home and takes on Lonzo as a Lowry/FVV replacement.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 8:09 pm to eyeran
There is no shot that Toronto trades Lowry.
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