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re: Good article on BI's value and future of Max Contracts (hopefully)
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:51 pm to NOSHAU
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:51 pm to NOSHAU
quote:
OG does not shoot much more 3s than BI. The difference is that he was a FA. Ingram is a trade prospect so teams do not want to pay his value in trade assets and then have to max him.
44% of OG's shots were from 3.
No one would be complaining if BI did that, everyone would want to figure out how to keep him on the team.
1
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:52 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
What's special about NYK is that they're a true contender trying to get a title. It still makes sense to overspend if you think that the guy you're paying is maybe the difference between winning a title or not.
That's why OG got his money. If we had made the WCF last season and were trying to win a title this season, BI would be getting a full max.
I agree in principle what you're saying, but if we made it that far, then we did b/c it's highly likely Zion and BI played great, and it would be obvoius he deserves the max.
I think we should do the same thing NYK is doing, when that time comes. Every championship team has to. But it's not sustainable. You get like 3 years to make it happen until it becomes not viable anymore.
What sucks is that we were supposed to see if the BI/Zion pairing was good enough this postseason, and we didn't get to see that. We haven't seen that in 5 years, which sucks.
We should be in the boat Minny is in, which is deciding if we should continue as is or if one of our max guys isn't good enough.
Instead we have zero postseason data to go on with them and we're determining BI isn't good enough so get rid of him now.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:56 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
That's not what is happening here.
BI just hasn't been good enough at what he does to deserve a max.
The league without a doubt covets what BI does over what OG does.
BI and OG are two comletely different players.
At no point will the Knicks, or any team OG might have gone to, expect OG to create a basket for them with under 2 minutes left in a game.
BI is expected to do that, he just didnt' do it well enough this past year.
Mikal Bridges is going to want a max contract too, and i'd say he's not worth it either. Elite excellent role player, but he should be making near max money, not max money, just like OG.
No one is going to blame OG or Mikal for losing a playoff game or series. They could be the reason they win one easily, but they'll rarely get the blame for it.
Regardless of what team BI plays for, that's a burden he'll always have b/c he's a scorer/creater, and that's the guys that get the praise and the blame 1st.
This brings up a question that I have all the time when I see player rankings in the NBA. Who is a "better" player, the primary creator that is 20th best at what he does, or the role player who is top 5 at what he does? The answer probably really depends on team context, which is why player rankings in a whole are kinda silly.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:02 pm to Epic Cajun
by the third contract it should be a clear pecking order and not just “next man up to the money pile”.
these things self sort which is what we are seeing here. As the article said…if the hawks wanted Ingram they’d have traded Murray for him. If the warriors wanted Ingram he’d be a warrior. If the magic or pistons or sixers wanted Ingram, he’d be there right this minute
at some point, the players & agents have to read the room
these things self sort which is what we are seeing here. As the article said…if the hawks wanted Ingram they’d have traded Murray for him. If the warriors wanted Ingram he’d be a warrior. If the magic or pistons or sixers wanted Ingram, he’d be there right this minute
at some point, the players & agents have to read the room
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:06 pm to Epic Cajun
quote:Doesn't mean he takes more 3s. He is not a scorer. He is a defender who only shoots 10-11 total shots a game. Two different roles.
44% of OG's shots were from 3.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:13 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
The only cap space teams next year are tanking teams. If Ingram leaves for a max to go to a tanking team instead of taking less money to try and compete then that tells me all I need to know about him.
Always take the money.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:14 pm to NOSHAU
quote:
Doesn't mean he takes more 3s. He is not a scorer. He is a defender who only shoots 10-11 total shots a game. Two different roles.
Right but he is really good at his role. One of the best in the league.
Ingram is not good at his role no one would consider him one of the best in the league.
Ingram's role also doesn't prevent him from playing defense which he doesn't
Every team in the league would prefer an elite 3&D guy to a middling scorer that's terrible on defense
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:18 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
What does BI do that the league covets?
Buckets …. lol
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:26 pm to Epic Cajun
quote:
This brings up a question that I have all the time when I see player rankings in the NBA. Who is a "better" player, the primary creator that is 20th best at what he does, or the role player who is top 5 at what he does? The answer probably really depends on team context, which is why player rankings in a whole are kinda silly.
Thank you. That's basically what i was saying.
ANd it is an excellent question.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:35 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
and future of Max Contracts (hopefully)
This is only because of the 2nd apron creating basically a hard cap.
Max contracts were historically fine for BI-type players b/c legit superstars were so underpaid with their tier of max salary.
The curious question is how the league maintains their revenue split with players if they stop giving out max deals to guys like BI. Those dollars have to go somewhere, and rookies/superstars have set incomes. I could see this being just a quick overreaction, b/c the alternative to overpaying good players like BI is overpaying legit role players. That salary has to go somewhere b/c the players have to get that % of revenue.
This post was edited on 7/10/24 at 3:36 pm
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:45 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
What does BI do that the league covets?
Midrange shots? Nope
Bad Defense? Nope
Bad off ball play? Nope
C'mon man. you konw what i'm saying. BI is a scorer/creater, OG is a 3&D guy. The elite scorer will always be more coveted than the elite role player.
And BI is not bad at defense. CJ is bad at defense.
and i've posted the stats many times. BI was an elite scorer this year off picks. Top 15% in the league.
And he was just as elite off dribble handoffs as a scorer being top 12% in the league.
He had the 17th most possessions in the league off screens, and he had a higher eFG%, 60.4% than everyone ahead of him except for 2 guys, KAT who he was just 1.5% points lower than, and Steph Curry, who was far and away better than everyone at 70.6%.
He had the 36th most possessions in the league on dribble handoffs, and he had a higher eFG%, 57.6%, than everyone ahead of him except two people....Luka at 58.9% and CJ at 59.2%.
If Murray is the PG and we can have more action with BI off the ball scoring at an elite level, that's a good thing, and why I'm ok keeping him one more year.
and for god sake run some dribble handoffs with Zion with the ball in his hands for BI.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 3:50 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
BI was an elite scorer this year off picks. Top 15% in the league.
And that was a starting center who couldn't set a pick unless iit was a moving pick.
I haven't studied Theis and don't know if he can set a screen, but if he can, it'll do a lot for BI's game.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 4:10 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
125th in LEBRON
WTF is this?!
We are at the point that analytics have jumped the shark!
This post was edited on 7/10/24 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 7/10/24 at 4:37 pm to TeddyPadillac
With this new CBA I think you will see teams pivot to only having one max player and surrounding that guy with other players that are making 25% or less of the cap. The second apron and tax penalties are just to much, and frankly I kind of like it. There were far to many teams paying max money to guys that aren’t worth it.
If you really want to see the thought process behind who will get paid and who won’t, look no further than Denver. Jamal Murray is due an extension and everyone thought it would be a no-brainer 30% max pay the guy. It’s not done yet, which means Denver is trying to get it lower.
Also, I see alot of arguments about OG’s contract, he did not get paid a max deal, he took less than max by a good bit taking 26% of the cap when his max is 30%. If BI were willing to do that then the deal would have already been signed.
I really think a fair number for both Pels and Ingram would be for BI to re-sign on a 4/175 deal. That would basically take his current contract and continue the 8% raises every season, keeping him around that 25% of the cap number. It would make him far more appealing in a trade also.
If you really want to see the thought process behind who will get paid and who won’t, look no further than Denver. Jamal Murray is due an extension and everyone thought it would be a no-brainer 30% max pay the guy. It’s not done yet, which means Denver is trying to get it lower.
Also, I see alot of arguments about OG’s contract, he did not get paid a max deal, he took less than max by a good bit taking 26% of the cap when his max is 30%. If BI were willing to do that then the deal would have already been signed.
I really think a fair number for both Pels and Ingram would be for BI to re-sign on a 4/175 deal. That would basically take his current contract and continue the 8% raises every season, keeping him around that 25% of the cap number. It would make him far more appealing in a trade also.
This post was edited on 7/10/24 at 4:51 pm
Posted on 7/10/24 at 4:49 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
Also, I see alot of arguments about OG’s contract, he did not get paid a max deal, he took less than max by a good bit taking 26% of the cap when his max is 30%. If BI were willing to do that then the deal would have already been signed.
You are right. I assumed it was a max.
quote:
With this new CBA I think you will see teams pivot to only having one max player and surrounding that guy with other players that are making 25% or less of the cap.
I'd much rather that NBA than what we have now.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 4:52 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I'd much rather that NBA than what we have now
You and me both, I would rather not see teams throwing around rookie max extensions like their candy also, but I don’t see that changing anytime soon as they can always convince other teams to trade for a young guy that still has potential.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 5:17 pm to Pistol44
quote:
Buckets …. lol
in games that don't matter in an inefficient way, yeah
Posted on 7/10/24 at 5:21 pm to Balsamic_duck
The article doesn’t even mention the elephant in the room with Ingram - the guy barely plays.
However good or not good he is when he plays, he’s a terrible player in the 20+ games he misses every year.
The depth problems created by his contract are exasperated by the fact Ingram isn’t durable.
If he was showing up and playing 75 games a year he might be worth the max. As is, not close to it.
However good or not good he is when he plays, he’s a terrible player in the 20+ games he misses every year.
The depth problems created by his contract are exasperated by the fact Ingram isn’t durable.
If he was showing up and playing 75 games a year he might be worth the max. As is, not close to it.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 6:15 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
What does BI do that the league covets?
Midrange shots? Nope
Bad Defense? Nope
Bad off ball play? Nope
You're insufferable and dumb
Posted on 7/10/24 at 7:53 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
He's Tobias Harris 2.0
If we give him the max you can just pack it up because this iteration of the pelicans is dead.
Come on man. That's disrespectful. He isn't tobias Harris.
We can all agree we don't want to pay him anywhere near the max without shitting on him like that.
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