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re: 2023 NBA Free Agency, Pels cap state

Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:44 am to
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
476619 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:44 am to
Seriously this is a combination of all the variables combining into one.

1. Dame just signed a huge deal and has many years left on it at the highest salary possible.

2. Miami really doesn't have any assets to deal.

3. Dame's huge salary makes trading him very difficult salary-wise, which further hamstrings Miami.

4. There aren't many (any?) realistic 3rd teams to facilitate this (primarily b/c of Miami's lack of assets).

I've been arguing for some time that the trade demand era would die out b/c the supply of teams who could make the deals has died out. But if a star can force a team to take back negative value to deal that star? League is done.
Posted by TechTiger
Running an easy 10
Member since Feb 2007
1461 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:50 am to
Yeah, I’m out on casually liking Dame as a player now. I hope the Blazers say frick him, and let him rot in Portland if those are his demands. He can sit there for the rest of the year….force him to retire unless they let them do their job. I’d rather never watch him play ball again than pull off this heist.

He has “requested” a trade…they have no obligation to do right by him if he is going to act this way.
Posted by PrimeTime Money
Houston, Texas, USA
Member since Nov 2012
28017 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:50 am to
quote:

Again per 36 is a stat for people like you to say a player is better than they actually are. If he was actually good he would get more minutes on one of the 3 worst teams in the NBA. It’s not even like his per 36 is godly anyway. That wouldn’t get him to an all star game especially if you actually watch him and see how bad he is defensively. Hell JV is 20 and 15 on per 36
Per 36 isn’t to make him seem better than he is. It’s to make it easier to see his per minute production by putting his number on a similar basis to other NBA starters.

And I stated that the reason he wasn’t getting more than 28 mpg is because he fouls too much.

As for your last point, JV isn’t a 20 year old sophomore, and he’s an established good player. And I never said Sengun is an all-star. I said his ceiling is an all-star caliber player.
This post was edited on 7/7/23 at 9:52 am
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
62446 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:51 am to
quote:

per 36 is a stat for people like you to say a player is better than they actually are.


I think you can learn a lot from per 36 numbers.

For shooters/spacers:
3PA - If they aren't taking 5 or more 3s per 36 then they aren't a volume shooter and it doesn't matter how good their 3 point percentage is. You really want the number to be 7 or above.

For scorers:
PPG - 18ppg per 36 seems to be a dividing line. 18 and below is just a guy. More than 18 and you have a better than average scorer.

For centers:
A personal foul rate of 2-4 means you play defense well enough to start. 4-5.5 means you play defense well enough to be a bench center. 5.5 and above means you should not play every game even coming off the bench.

I'm sure there are outliers for all of these, and not every bench player can do the same things as a stater, but from what I've seen there is a surprisingly strong correlation in these numbers for separating and projecting players.
This post was edited on 7/7/23 at 9:52 am
Posted by Mad Scientist26
Member since Jul 2018
2316 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:55 am to
Seems like Dame is almost giving AD vibes. Sucks for Portland but at least he gave them 11 years and never quit mid season on them.
Posted by Soggymoss
Member since Aug 2018
17655 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:56 am to
quote:

Dame is about to become a precedent one way or the other. If Dame forces his way to Miami, who has shite to deal, the NBA is officially broken. NBA is about to ask to redo the CBA to get NFL-style fines for that sort of behavior.

They need to make this sort of thing conduct detrimental to the league.

41 game suspension without pay. If you come back and try to act an arse then you get a full year without pay.
Posted by BallHawk
Orlando
Member since Jul 2011
6137 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:59 am to
Dame is going from hero to villain rather quickly in how he's handling this.
Posted by PrayingMantis
Member since Jul 2013
1313 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:01 am to
2K logic doesnt translate to the NBA.
Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
103971 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:22 am to
quote:

Dame is going from hero to villain rather quickly in how he's handling this


Trying to force his way to the team with no other options is always bad. When that team has crap assets, it is worse.

If AD had forced his way to the Lake Show at the deadline instead of Dell refusing to do so until the offseason, our return would have been crap between affecting our own pick which became Zion, affecting the Lakers’ pick, and who some of the talent would have been that came here.



People will put up with stars demanding a trade. Stars demanding to end up in one specific place without giving up much in return for them pisses off anyone who isn’t a fan of that team.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
476619 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:25 am to
quote:

Stars demanding to end up in one specific place without giving up much in return for them pisses off anyone who isn’t a fan of that team.

It can be argued that POR would receive negative assets (depending on if they could get off Nurk's deal and how you see Herro's deal).

It's one thing to "lose" the trade.

It's another thing to not even receive positive value in exchange for your star.
Posted by Epic Cajun
Lafayette, LA
Member since Feb 2013
37054 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:25 am to
Portland is rebuilding and probably tanking this year anyway. frick it, if he doesn't want to participate, just let him sit at home and fine his arse.

ETA: If you want to choose where you play, then do it in free agency. It's horseshite to attempt to force a trade to one specific team. Hell, if he would give them a list of 3 teams it would at least create a competitive market.

He really has no leverage here. In the Davis situation he only had 1.5 years left on his deal and he could just walk away for nothing after that. Lillard still has a minimum of 3 years left on his deal before he could opt out of his deal and that last year would pay him 63 million at age 36 (hint, he's not opting out of that )
This post was edited on 7/7/23 at 10:34 am
Posted by Soggymoss
Member since Aug 2018
17655 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:34 am to
quote:

Hell, if he would give them a list of 3 teams it would at least create a competitive market.

This I wouldn’t mind. Just go them like Jrue did here and say “Hey look, i really want the chance to compete for a championship, here’s a list of 6 teams I believe I can do that with, could you find me a trade to any one of those?”

That sort of thing would go way better with fans.
Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
103971 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:37 am to
quote:

It's one thing to "lose" the trade. It's another thing to not even receive positive value in exchange for your star.


People didn’t like the Beal trade but knew he had them bent over because of the NTC and that is why Washington got crap back.

Dame has 4 years left on his deal and is throwing a fricking tantrum that they didn’t trade Scoot for a mythical unicorn that he could ride into the playoffs. That pisses off a lot of people because it means contracts mean absolutely nothing anymore.
Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
103971 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:39 am to
IIRC, Jrue came to us quietly about going and didn’t raise the pressure in public, which in turn let us keep leverage while moving him.


As much as people bitch about several pieces from that trade like Bledsoe, we got a very good deal given Jrue’s relative value vs that of AD.

Hence why few people if any begrudge Jrue leaving, as he handled it right.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
476619 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:39 am to
quote:

That pisses off a lot of people because it means contracts mean absolutely nothing anymore.


Yeah even Simmons was criticizing Dame and he's (at least his podcast-public persona) has backed the "player empowerment movement" for years. I think the public tide is turning (largely led by Harden doing it 3x in like 4 years ).
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
476619 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:40 am to
Jrue was also in the last year of his deal, right?
Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
103971 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:42 am to
He signed a 5 year deal in summer of 2017 and got traded in the 2020 offseason.

The question is whether that last year was a player option or if it was a full year.

Edit - Per articles from the time of the contract, year five was a PO.
This post was edited on 7/7/23 at 10:46 am
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
30337 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:48 am to
quote:

As much as people bitch about several pieces from that trade like Bledsoe, we got a very good deal given Jrue’s relative value vs that of AD.



we did get a good deal at the time, we thought.
Looking back on it, we really didn't get shite, but that's the past and so what, move on.
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
30337 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:53 am to
this just isnt' a good look for Dame, or the league.

I get he was loyal to Portland for 11 years, and that should be commended, especially in todays landscape. But just b/c you stayed in that small market for that long doesn't mean that they are going to make a bad trade simply b/c that's what Dame wants. If you didn't want to be there for the next 5 years, then you shoudn't have signed the super max.

There should be a stipulation when you sign a supermax that you cannot be traded until your contract is up. Maybe have some type of out in the last year, for both the team and the player, but if you want a supermax, then you play for that team for that contract, end of story. maybe they would stop handing out supermax's like they are candy.
Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
103971 posts
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:54 am to
Deal ain’t over yet. Those picks could still be worth something if the Bucks implode due to the new CBA.
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