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re: Westworld Episode 10: The Bicameral Mind. Photos.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 10:53 am to guedeaux
Posted on 12/6/16 at 10:53 am to guedeaux
quote:
The needing to experience pain to unlock the consciousness and find their way to the center of the maze is a big part of the show. It isn't really debatable. It's pretty explicitly said.
She was starting to pass the tests prior to the opening of the park, it's the whole reason why Arnold had her kill him. He didn't think WE could deal with it and stop the park from being opened. The path has many choices, this is one of them. There were other paths to the center.
quote:
Honestly, I think you missed a lot in the finale.
How so?
This post was edited on 12/6/16 at 10:57 am
2
Posted on 12/6/16 at 11:22 am to Dam Guide
quote:
it's the whole reason why Arnold had her kill him.
Arnold had started to unlock consciousness. He hadn't done it completely. He wasn't willing to pay the price of purchasing their consciousness through thwireless suffering.
Arnold had started the path by making a tragedy the foundation of the personality. This is established. The consciousness is unlocked and found through pain. Ford states that Arnold had thought that he had fotten there, but he hadn't pushed enough. There is a parallel made between Dolores shooting Arnold and shooting Ford. When she shot Arnold she was a tool doing what she was programmed. She had not awakened, despite Arnold's attempts. When she shoots Ford the path is complete. She has awakened and made the choice herself. At least that is what we are lead to believe.
Any idea that there are many paths is not something that is stated in the show. It is a personal extrapolation.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 11:24 am to Dam Guide
quote:
How so?
The conversation in the church when Ford says he realized that Arnold was right, but free will could not be forced. It needs to be an organic journey (30+ years)
The explanation of how it took 500 years before someone realized that the shape of the human brain existed in the "Creation of Adam." Inferring that man is created when his own mind is leading him.
quote:
He didn't think WE could deal with it and stop the park from being opened.
He didn't think they should be tortured in their own hell.
quote:
There were other paths to the center.
I think it was implied that this was the only one; that they couldn't move forward AND have Ford around. They would always hear the voices of their makers as long as they were constantly meeting their makers.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 11:28 am to Hot Carl
quote:
the center of the maze payoff was unsatifying for me.
The maze is not for you.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 12:28 pm to Socrates Johnson
quote:
Arnold had started to unlock consciousness. He hadn't done it completely. He wasn't willing to pay the price of purchasing their consciousness through thwireless suffering. Arnold had started the path by making a tragedy the foundation of the personality. This is established. The consciousness is unlocked and found through pain. Ford states that Arnold had thought that he had fotten there, but he hadn't pushed enough. There is a parallel made between Dolores shooting Arnold and shooting Ford. When she shot Arnold she was a tool doing what she was programmed. She had not awakened, despite Arnold's attempts. When she shoots Ford the path is complete. She has awakened and made the choice herself. At least that is what we are lead to believe. Any idea that there are many paths is not something that is stated in the show. It is a personal extrapolation.
We have only seen one path so far, this show has made lots of people wrong so far in this thread. It's foolish to say this is the only way it can be done at this point. The point of the maze is the choices the host makes to get to the center, it's not a linear path which is clearly stated in the show.
quote:
Socrates Johnson
None of what you said shows I didn't watch the entire episode...
quote:
He didn't think they should be tortured in their own hell.
Because the people running the show wouldn't believe they were more than hosts to be shot and raped.
quote:
I think it was implied that this was the only one; that they couldn't move forward AND have Ford around. They would always hear the voices of their makers as long as they were constantly meeting their makers.
Arnold believed there were more ways and the show could really branch anywhere, Ford honestly can't be trusted. His motivations could be purely selfish at this point. Hell we don't really understand Mauve's actions.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 12:55 pm to Peazey
quote:Are you honestly comparing this to the effect that MIB was seeking? That's not even apples and oranges. That's apples and cinder blocks.
So you watch movies and are completely unaffected by them.
quote:No. It's bad writing.
You are so close to the point, but you are choosing to blame it on bad writing rather than see the obvious point. Yes, he is tired of the fantasy. Yes, he is looking for something real. No, he doesn't find it. He has desensitized himself to the experience. Everything seems fake to him, even the outside world. He put himself in a number of different scenarios to test himself and to test the world around himself. This is called character development.
An intelligent man who understands and accepts that the hosts are nothing more than dolls cannot expect to find a soul changing revelation by killing doll. There is no way he can force himself to believe that deed means anymore than killing a hooker on GTA.
He can have fun with it and be entertained by it but at the end of the day he should understand that it's all pretend. This oversight, imo, is not character development but just a small piece of bad writing.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 1:01 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
Mauve
MAEVE. FOR frick'S SAKE, HER NAME IS MAEVE.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 1:21 pm to LSU2NO
quote:
Notice the real Arnold didn't have glasses
Yes he did. When Ford first brought Bernard online and was going through his actions/motor skills/"ticks" or whatever you want to call it, he corrected Bernard when he cleaned his glasses. Something along the lines of "No, Arnold used cleaning his glasses as a way to gather his thoughts and think." Bernard is a host and is built as a replica of Arnold.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 1:23 pm to TigerstuckinMS
quote:
MAEVE. FOR frick'S SAKE, HER NAME IS MAEVE.
It's pointless. They don't want to spell Dolores correctly either.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 1:39 pm to guedeaux
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, Arnold was a real person. Notice the real Arnold didn't have glasses. Now Ford could have created an android Arnold before Arnold died. I also think that Delores is Ford's memories and persona. Ford is now immersed in this world he created. Also, it allows Anthony Hopkins to exit the series.
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No, Ford was able to capture Arnold's memories, before Arnold died. Delos/the park was into the behavior business, so it would be logical that everybody's lives would not be that private (looking over their shoulders).
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No, Arnold was a real person. Notice the real Arnold didn't have glasses. Now Ford could have created an android Arnold before Arnold died. I also think that Delores is Ford's memories and persona. Ford is now immersed in this world he created. Also, it allows Anthony Hopkins to exit the series.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
Wait. What? You think that they showed Dolores killing a fake Arnold?
No, Ford was able to capture Arnold's memories, before Arnold died. Delos/the park was into the behavior business, so it would be logical that everybody's lives would not be that private (looking over their shoulders).
Posted on 12/6/16 at 1:52 pm to TigerstuckinMS
quote:
MAEVE. FOR frick'S SAKE, HER NAME IS MAEVE.
Salty? Seems a bit much for something you don't read. Honestly didn't read much on the show til after the finale because of the bullshite on here. The timeline argument got old.
This post was edited on 12/6/16 at 1:53 pm
Posted on 12/6/16 at 2:06 pm to King George
quote:
No. It's bad writing. An intelligent man who understands and accepts that the hosts are nothing more than dolls cannot expect to find a soul changing revelation by killing doll. There is no way he can force himself to believe that deed means anymore than killing a hooker on GTA. He can have fun with it and be entertained by it but at the end of the day he should understand that it's all pretend. This oversight, imo, is not character development but just a small piece of bad writing.
I hate to pass such a quick judgment, but based on this I fear you have missed the point altogether and by missing that point, you're diagnosing "bad writing."
I don't know what else to tell you - at this point, MiB's journey is about as important as anyone's thus far (although his may be ending
).Posted on 12/6/16 at 2:13 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
Honestly didn't read much on the show til after the finale because of the bull shite on here.
Maybe if you had contributed to the weekly discussions, you'd be less obtuse now. You were shown and told a redemption story. If you can't believe it, don't get upset when someone implies that you didn't watch an episode that explicitly stated something.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 2:16 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
None of what you said shows I didn't watch the entire episode...
He didn't say you didn't watch. He said that you missed a lot in the episode.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 3:41 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
quote: No. It's bad writing. An intelligent man who understands and accepts that the hosts are nothing more than dolls cannot expect to find a soul changing revelation by killing doll. There is no way he can force himself to believe that deed means anymore than killing a hooker on GTA. He can have fun with it and be entertained by it but at the end of the day he should understand that it's all pretend. This oversight, imo, is not character development but just a small piece of bad writing.
I hate to pass such a quick judgment, but based on this I fear you have missed the point altogether and by missing that point, you're diagnosing "bad writing." I don't know what else to tell you - at this point, MiB's journey is about as important as anyone's thus far (although his may be ending ).
I agree that it was poor writing . . . We know MIB has no problem killing from the first sciences where he is introduced. Getting back to a point I tried to make earlier, if it was William who killed Maeve to see if he had become evil, then that would make more sense than using MIB to confirm what they never gave us a reason to doubt.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 3:49 pm to DivotBreath
quote:
We know MIB has no problem killing from the first sciences where he is introduced.
You know this show isn't shown in strict chronological order, right?
quote:
if it was William who killed Maeve to see if he had become evil, then that would make more sense than using MIB to confirm what they never gave us a reason to doubt.
You know William is MiB, right?
Posted on 12/6/16 at 4:04 pm to TigerstuckinMS
quote:
MAEVE. FOR frick'S SAKE, HER NAME IS MAEVE.
This made me laugh, out loud.
This post was edited on 12/6/16 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 12/6/16 at 4:38 pm to Ace Midnight
Yes, I'm aware William = MIB.
Yes, I'm aware the show is not in chronological order.
How about: it makes no sense that William/MIB portrayed by Ed Harris (dressed in all black western clothing, like they always portray the bad guy in western movies) shot Maeve and her daughter just to prove that he was evil. It would have made more sense in the story if William/MIB portrayed by Jimmi Simpson (dressed in a lovely ensemble of casual western wear with earth-tone colors) shot Maeve and her daughter to find out if he was evil when he began to suspect that he had turned bad. The bad writing aspect of this is the writers did not want to give away that William = MIB too early in the season, so they had MIB shoot Maeve.
Yes, I'm aware the show is not in chronological order.
How about: it makes no sense that William/MIB portrayed by Ed Harris (dressed in all black western clothing, like they always portray the bad guy in western movies) shot Maeve and her daughter just to prove that he was evil. It would have made more sense in the story if William/MIB portrayed by Jimmi Simpson (dressed in a lovely ensemble of casual western wear with earth-tone colors) shot Maeve and her daughter to find out if he was evil when he began to suspect that he had turned bad. The bad writing aspect of this is the writers did not want to give away that William = MIB too early in the season, so they had MIB shoot Maeve.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 4:47 pm to DivotBreath
quote:
shot Maeve and her daughter just to prove that he was evil.
I'm not 100% certain that was his intention - maybe I wasn't paying that close attention, but didn't he kill Maeve and daughter to try to see if he could feel "something"? And then got the revelation that Maeve was alive? Something he had suspected all those years ago with Delores, but dismissed because Logan convinced him them they were dolls. I don't think "good" or "evil" was necessarily what he was going for. However, if he used that type of language, I'll reconsider.
I'm guessing that very recent trip was right after his wife died? She'd accused him of being cold, unfeeling, empty, etc.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 4:51 pm to DivotBreath
You know William began his transformation into MiB during his first visit, right? His transition wasn't the shooting of maeve and her daughter.
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