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re: Westworld Episode 10: The Bicameral Mind. Photos.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 5:18 pm to PearlJam
Posted on 12/6/16 at 5:18 pm to PearlJam
quote:
You know William began his transformation into MiB during his first visit, right? His transition wasn't the shooting of maeve and her daughter.
Yes, considering they never showed William leaving or coming back for a second visit as William, then everything that was portrayed as Willliam would, by my assumption, be on his first trip (which future BIL Logan seems to remind the viewer several times). Thus, the final William scenes where he puts on the black hat would be the clear indication that his transformation to MIB began on his first trip.
The Ed Harris version of William/MIB makes trips either every year or multiple trips a year. We have no reference as to when during the 35 years that MIB is when we see him as the Ed Harris MIB. It is likely, albeit presumed, that the MIB must be sometime within the last 5-7-10 years since he sure isn't a younger looking version of William/MIB. Thus, his need to find out how evil he was, or to what extent he had no feelings, comes in the latter days of MIB (and may coincide with the loss of his wife). But to the point of an earlier poster, he knows he is trying to kill hosts that just get patched up and put back into play, so how could he have been proving anything to himself? This is my point of saying that it would have meant more if it was a younger version of William/MIB that shot Maeve and her daughter.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 6:08 pm to DivotBreath
Is it possible that he didn't come back to the park for a while (maybe too tied up with marriage/career), then finally comes back after the death of his wife and the whole Maeve/daughter thing happens?
Although I want to say very early in the season he says something like he's been coming there for thirty years. But that's not explicitly stating he's been going there regularly over a 30 year period.
Although I want to say very early in the season he says something like he's been coming there for thirty years. But that's not explicitly stating he's been going there regularly over a 30 year period.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 6:08 pm to DivotBreath
Maybe this would help. Here's the transcript that I found.
MIB: You want to know who I am? Who I really am? I'm a god. Titan of industry. Philanthropist. Family man, married to a beautiful woman, father to a beautiful daughter. I'm the good guy, Teddy.
Then, last year, my wife took the wrong pills. Fell asleep in the bath. Tragic accident. 30 years of marriage vanished. How do you say it? "Like a deep and distant dream."
Then, at the funeral, I tried to console my daughter. She pushed me away, told me that my wife's death was no accident... that she killed herself because of me.
Emily said that every day with me had been sheer terror. At any point, I could blow up or collapse like some dark star or...
Teddy: Did you hurt them, too?
MIB: Never. They never saw anything like the man I am in here. But she knew anyway. She said if I stacked up all my good deeds, it was just an elegant wall I built to hide what's inside from everyone, and from myself. I had to prove her wrong, so I came back here.
Because that's what this place does, right? Reveals your true self.
But that time, I didn't join one of Ford's stories, I... I created my own. A test. A very simple one. I found a woman, an ordinary homesteader and her daughter.
I wanted to see if I had it in me to do something truly evil. To see what I was really made of. I killed her and her daughter just to see what I felt.
Then, just when I thought it was done... the woman refused to die.
Teddy: You're a f*cking animal.
MIB: Well, an animal would've felt something. I felt... nothing.
And then something miraculous happened. In all my years coming here, I had never seen anything like it. She was alive, truly alive, if only for a moment.
And that was when the maze revealed itself to me. The maze.
MIB: You want to know who I am? Who I really am? I'm a god. Titan of industry. Philanthropist. Family man, married to a beautiful woman, father to a beautiful daughter. I'm the good guy, Teddy.
Then, last year, my wife took the wrong pills. Fell asleep in the bath. Tragic accident. 30 years of marriage vanished. How do you say it? "Like a deep and distant dream."
Then, at the funeral, I tried to console my daughter. She pushed me away, told me that my wife's death was no accident... that she killed herself because of me.
Emily said that every day with me had been sheer terror. At any point, I could blow up or collapse like some dark star or...
Teddy: Did you hurt them, too?
MIB: Never. They never saw anything like the man I am in here. But she knew anyway. She said if I stacked up all my good deeds, it was just an elegant wall I built to hide what's inside from everyone, and from myself. I had to prove her wrong, so I came back here.
Because that's what this place does, right? Reveals your true self.
But that time, I didn't join one of Ford's stories, I... I created my own. A test. A very simple one. I found a woman, an ordinary homesteader and her daughter.
I wanted to see if I had it in me to do something truly evil. To see what I was really made of. I killed her and her daughter just to see what I felt.
Then, just when I thought it was done... the woman refused to die.
Teddy: You're a f*cking animal.
MIB: Well, an animal would've felt something. I felt... nothing.
And then something miraculous happened. In all my years coming here, I had never seen anything like it. She was alive, truly alive, if only for a moment.
And that was when the maze revealed itself to me. The maze.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 6:13 pm to Piece
quote:
In all my years coming here
Ok, so I guess he was going there pretty regularly over that 30 year period. Muh bad
Posted on 12/6/16 at 6:31 pm to Piece
The dialogue, in my mind, makes the point I made a few pages back: we know William/MIB did not go to the park until after it had been open a few years (dialogue with Logan); we also know MIB was not married when he first came to the park but was married for 30 years from what he tells Teddy. The park has been open for 35 years.
If one were to assume that MIB got married after he returned from his first trip to the park, lets assume it is in year 5 after WW had opened (again, we know Logan has been a few times before he finally talked William/MIB into going -- again, assuming Logan did not go multiple times a year). So in year 35 or so, MIB creates his own story and shoots Maeve and her daughter . . . Then Maeve gets reassigned as a brothel madam . . . then Maeve establishes a memory of being killed multiple times and seeing the tech crew in suits come to get her . . . she makes drawings of the tech crew and hides them, then finds them, then tests her theory by getting killed a few more times, and then starts getting the Asian dude and his dumb sidekick to start letting her reprogram herself . . . all taking place around year 35 after MIB created his own story and killed her. For these reasons, I suggest that the whole MIB killing Maeve was not good writing. It all takes place in a condensed period of time whereas we are led to believe that the storyline with Dolores, with Teddy and with Bernard all take place of a much larger period of time.
I accept that my opinion is in the minority, but I believe it is supported by what is stated above.
If one were to assume that MIB got married after he returned from his first trip to the park, lets assume it is in year 5 after WW had opened (again, we know Logan has been a few times before he finally talked William/MIB into going -- again, assuming Logan did not go multiple times a year). So in year 35 or so, MIB creates his own story and shoots Maeve and her daughter . . . Then Maeve gets reassigned as a brothel madam . . . then Maeve establishes a memory of being killed multiple times and seeing the tech crew in suits come to get her . . . she makes drawings of the tech crew and hides them, then finds them, then tests her theory by getting killed a few more times, and then starts getting the Asian dude and his dumb sidekick to start letting her reprogram herself . . . all taking place around year 35 after MIB created his own story and killed her. For these reasons, I suggest that the whole MIB killing Maeve was not good writing. It all takes place in a condensed period of time whereas we are led to believe that the storyline with Dolores, with Teddy and with Bernard all take place of a much larger period of time.
I accept that my opinion is in the minority, but I believe it is supported by what is stated above.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 6:43 pm to Socrates Johnson
quote:
Maybe if you had contributed to the weekly discussions, you'd be less obtuse now. You were shown and told a redemption story. If you can't believe it, don't get upset when someone implies that you didn't watch an episode that explicitly stated something.
Lol, that word doesn't mean what you think it means. I am open to new paths for the show to go in with consciousness, you guys are the ones demanding it is the one way linear path which was clearly stated that it wasn't that way.
This show has layers, things can easily change from what you were shown. You would think you would learn to not just take things for face value on this show by now. Learn from the timeline arguments this board was full of not that long ago and why it wasn't worth it to read it.
This post was edited on 12/6/16 at 6:50 pm
Posted on 12/6/16 at 6:58 pm to DivotBreath
I took it as MIB returned right after his encounter with daughter at the funeral, a year or so ago, and murdered Maeve and her daughter in cold blood. We see from her interaction directly after that with Bernard and Ford that she is pretty woke, so they would have to wipe her and change her story right then. That could give her approximately 6 to 12 months to start developing memories and killing herself which seems sufficient to me.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 7:01 pm to DivotBreath
quote:
accept that my opinion is in the minority, but I believe it is supported by what is stated above.
Fair enough and you're not shitting all over the show and criticizing without support. I respect your opinion on this matter, but I offer this:
Dolores has been evolving her story from the very beginning - pre-opening. We now know that the "reveries" were created by Arnold, so that's not new. Fair enough?
Now - MiB's story has been evolving almost as long as Delores - but he's human, so he has the imperfect human memory and, presumably, true human consciousness - not simulated like most of the hosts.
Maeve's story - for purposes of the Westworld television series on HBO, starts roughly about the time of MiB's visit 9 months - 1 year before the "current" narrative era. The critical event is MiB killing her and her daughter - the same event that triggered MiB redoubling his efforts to find the deeper level of the game (the maze).
So those are your three interlocking rings - everything else in the story supports, sets up or opposes that. Delores got William to thinking they were real, Logan disabused him of that, William kept coming back (compulsively - like he was in a loop?) and finally goes off script (like Dolores and Maeve?) - which causes the hosts to go off script. Maeve literally gets a new story. Dolores literally starts talking to herself.
Meh. Nothing is perfect. That's pretty good without going into the details of exactly why this or that fact isn't "perfect."
This post was edited on 12/6/16 at 7:12 pm
Posted on 12/6/16 at 7:09 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Delores has been evolving her story from the very beginning
Watch out they are going to come in screaming DOLORES!!!!!!!!!!!
This post was edited on 12/6/16 at 7:10 pm
Posted on 12/6/16 at 7:15 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
So those are your three interlocking rings - everything else in the story supports, sets up or opposes that. Delores got William to thinking they were real, Logan disabused him of that, William kept coming back (compulsively - like he was in a loop?) and finally goes off script (like Delores and Maeve?) - which causes the hosts to go off script. Maeve literally gets a new story. Delores literally starts talking to herself.
I don't approve of your shithead smugness but I gotta give you credit for the solid breakdowns of an intricate story.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 7:18 pm to Murray
quote:
shithead smugness
I get that a lot, as you can imagine, here and IRL.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 7:19 pm to Murray
quote:
solid breakdowns of an intricate story.
Wait until we get into the resurrection motifs.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 7:36 pm to Ace Midnight
So is it safe to assume this guy is still alive?
Was it Ford that had him captured before the Maeve/Dolores freak out?
If so why? Could it be that he is now one of the original humans in the park? Role reversal mind frickening.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 7:38 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
quote:
So is it safe to assume this guy is still alive?
Nothing is certain, but I think both Thor's brother and Elsie are still alive.
quote:
Was it Ford that had him captured before the Maeve/Dolores freak out?
Depends on who is controlling the ghost nation. My best guess is Ford, because they had their controls altered in advance of the gala.
quote:
If so why?
Obviously get head of security out of the way to set up the Keystone Cops situation with Escaton/Armistice comedy (
quote:
Could it be that he is now one of the original humans in the park? Role reversal mind frickening.
Meh - I'm still 50/50 on whether he's a host or not.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 7:54 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Elsie
I hope she's still around.
quote:
Meh - I'm still 50/50 on whether he's a host or not.
I think it's safe to think he's human, otherwise, there would be no need to capture/kill him when you could just reprogram him.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 8:03 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
quote:
I think it's safe to think he's human, otherwise, there would be no need to capture/kill him when you could just reprogram him.
That's a good point.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 10:34 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
quote:
So is it safe to assume this guy is still alive?
I think that's where they got the gun for Maeve. The one Asian guy slipped into her bag just before she went to the train. When I saw the bright red barrel on it, signifying "real gun" exactly like the gun they repeatedly showed him with, that was my first thought. It suddenly made sense in my head that was the only reason he was attacked, specifically for his gun.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 11:06 pm to HeadChange
Going to dive into this series Thursday.
I've heard great things. The preview looks fantastic.
I've heard great things. The preview looks fantastic.
Posted on 12/6/16 at 11:33 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Nothing is certain, but I think both Thor's brother and Elsie are still alive.
I thought they showed Bernard killing Elsie during one of his memories when he asked Ford if he'd ever ordered him to do something like kill Theresa in the past?
This post was edited on 12/6/16 at 11:39 pm
Posted on 12/6/16 at 11:43 pm to Merck
quote:
It suddenly made sense in my head that was the only reason he was attacked, specifically for his gun.
Nice catch. It was indeed the same gun (a POS Beretta Px4 Storm subcompact, awful gun LOL)
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