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re: Official Dark Knight Discussion Thread (Spoilers)
Posted on 7/23/08 at 9:23 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Posted on 7/23/08 at 9:23 pm to Tiger Voodoo
This has been addressed multiple times already...in a nutshell the reason is because you don't want to pin such a thing on someone alive. What if they had an alibi for it?
What if the Joker was hoping that they would blame him because he had evidence that it was impossible for him to have done it, thus not only throwing mud on Dent but also on the active police force blaming innocent people.
If they had time/information to plan it all, that would have been the best action. But they needed to give an explination for the death of Dent and others right then and there without compromising Dent's actions.
What if the Joker was hoping that they would blame him because he had evidence that it was impossible for him to have done it, thus not only throwing mud on Dent but also on the active police force blaming innocent people.
If they had time/information to plan it all, that would have been the best action. But they needed to give an explination for the death of Dent and others right then and there without compromising Dent's actions.
This post was edited on 7/23/08 at 9:33 pm
1
Posted on 7/23/08 at 9:32 pm to Volvagia
quote:
If they had time/information to plan it all, that would have ben the best action. But they needed to give an explination for the death of Dent and others right then and there without compromising Dent's actions.
How bout Batman and Gordon say, "One of The Jokers' henchmen was holding us all hostage, and Batman showed up, and he threw Dent off the roof, and Batman tried to save him but couldn't. By the time he got back up here, the perp was gone."
Posted on 7/23/08 at 9:36 pm to Tiger Voodoo
And the others deaths?
You have to be carefull blaming alive people of crimes they don't want to be blamed with. The fact that they didn't do it means you can't prove that they did, and what happens then? An investigation of the situation, and a overview of the facts, which would ineviably lead to Dent.
Rather, simply blame someone who don't debate the issue, someone that everyone is eager to hate already so they won't question it.
You have to be carefull blaming alive people of crimes they don't want to be blamed with. The fact that they didn't do it means you can't prove that they did, and what happens then? An investigation of the situation, and a overview of the facts, which would ineviably lead to Dent.
Rather, simply blame someone who don't debate the issue, someone that everyone is eager to hate already so they won't question it.
This post was edited on 7/23/08 at 9:36 pm
Posted on 7/23/08 at 9:49 pm to Volvagia
quote:
You have to be carefull blaming alive people of crimes they don't want to be blamed with.
But you aren't blaming anyone in particular. Joker obviously had NUMEROUS henchmen, and I don't think anyone would be surprised if a couple of murders in a crime spree like the one the Joker was involved in weren't pinned on any one individual.
And why was everyone so eager to hate Batman if he had just captured The Joker and saved the lives of all of those hostages? To me the crisis was already averted, and Dent's death at the hands of The Joker would have established a clear martyr in the battle against crime and corruption. He died fighting Joker, and gave his life, but Joker went down too. Good guys win.
I think its just a clear device to set Batman up as a villian in the next movie, and just thought it was a little cheap.
Posted on 7/23/08 at 10:01 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
But you aren't blaming anyone in particular. Joker obviously had NUMEROUS henchmen, and I don't think anyone would be surprised if a couple of murders in a crime spree like the one the Joker was involved in weren't pinned on any one individual.
We aren't talking about a couple. We are talking about 5, including some cops. I don't think they'll just say it happened due to the Joker (based on no evidence), they'll probably won't be able to pin it on someone, and then all investigations will be dropped. Especially as Dent's MO was NOTHING like the Joker's. Every Joker murder had some meaning attached to it, some message to the cops. These didn't.
They would investigate, and what would happen if it lead away from the victim, or even worse to Dent?
At least here, Batman would been seen fleeing from the scene of a crime, making him a prime suspect by default.
quote:
And why was everyone so eager to hate Batman if he had just captured The Joker and saved the lives of all of those hostages?
Less than 24 hours prior they wanted him to turn himself in because of the Joker. Someone lied in his stead, Batman still didn't show his face, and 20+ people died as a direct result.
And the events of that night (hostage situation) were arugably a direct result of Batman's actions. I doubt helping make it better would do much towards the whole PR position.
Posted on 7/24/08 at 1:14 am to Volvagia
Spoiler Spoiler Spoilerish
I saw the film tonight and read all 20 pages of this thread and I'm tired, anyway......
1. Couldn't we have gotten a better background on what made the Joker who he became? I mean people don't just get that way out of the blue, you know not trusting society, wanting to terrorize people, etc. I know the whole deal about his dad terrorizing him and his mom. And something about his wife rejecting him, but come on some more back ground. Oh and did he say that he scarred his own face with the knife to make his wife feel better about her own scars? Did I catch that right?
Great great performance by the Joker/Ledger though. Right up there with Bardem in No Country, Bill the Butcher, Hannibal, Jigsaw from "Saw", etc. I wouldn't rank it with the all time best ever movies but it was very good. I think Ledger actually took over this film for the most part, kind of like a DDL or Bob DeNiro or somebody like that.
2. I thought maybe the first part was slow and that maybe they tried to make this movie a little too detailed and complicated for a over the top, super hero movie. There was just so much to grasp. I wish we could combine Downey Jr.'s good guy character like Iron Man in the same movie with Ledger. Sucks that Heath died, ugh. I still think Iron Man was very good, just a different vibe than TDK.
3. So at the murdered commissioner's funeral they knew the Joker would shoot at the mayor on the podium? And they planted a fake Gordon to jump in front of the bullet to die for the Mayor? Is that right?
4. Love the contrast of the Joker vs Batman. Polar opposites that equal out each other. I think the point at the end about needing to believe in Dent aka "the white knight in shining armor", somebody out in the open who gets the bad guys in the open is an interesting point, are people in Gotham that pussified? People can overcome some terrorism without being scarred for life as a collective city of millions of people.
Definitely an over the top movie but fun. How does the Joker manipulate so many people and situations, getting away with all that shite? Oh well I'm done for now.
I saw the film tonight and read all 20 pages of this thread and I'm tired, anyway......
1. Couldn't we have gotten a better background on what made the Joker who he became? I mean people don't just get that way out of the blue, you know not trusting society, wanting to terrorize people, etc. I know the whole deal about his dad terrorizing him and his mom. And something about his wife rejecting him, but come on some more back ground. Oh and did he say that he scarred his own face with the knife to make his wife feel better about her own scars? Did I catch that right?
Great great performance by the Joker/Ledger though. Right up there with Bardem in No Country, Bill the Butcher, Hannibal, Jigsaw from "Saw", etc. I wouldn't rank it with the all time best ever movies but it was very good. I think Ledger actually took over this film for the most part, kind of like a DDL or Bob DeNiro or somebody like that.
2. I thought maybe the first part was slow and that maybe they tried to make this movie a little too detailed and complicated for a over the top, super hero movie. There was just so much to grasp. I wish we could combine Downey Jr.'s good guy character like Iron Man in the same movie with Ledger. Sucks that Heath died, ugh. I still think Iron Man was very good, just a different vibe than TDK.
3. So at the murdered commissioner's funeral they knew the Joker would shoot at the mayor on the podium? And they planted a fake Gordon to jump in front of the bullet to die for the Mayor? Is that right?
4. Love the contrast of the Joker vs Batman. Polar opposites that equal out each other. I think the point at the end about needing to believe in Dent aka "the white knight in shining armor", somebody out in the open who gets the bad guys in the open is an interesting point, are people in Gotham that pussified? People can overcome some terrorism without being scarred for life as a collective city of millions of people.
Definitely an over the top movie but fun. How does the Joker manipulate so many people and situations, getting away with all that shite? Oh well I'm done for now.
Posted on 7/24/08 at 1:59 am to BS
quote:
1. Couldn't we have gotten a better background on what made the Joker who he became? I mean people don't just get that way out of the blue, you know not trusting society, wanting to terrorize people, etc. I know the whole deal about his dad terrorizing him and his mom. And something about his wife rejecting him, but come on some more back ground. Oh and did he say that he scarred his own face with the knife to make his wife feel better about her own scars? Did I catch that right?
He told two different stories as to how he got the scars, first involving his father and second involving his wife. It's not known if either of them are true.
quote:
3. So at the murdered commissioner's funeral they knew the Joker would shoot at the mayor on the podium? And they planted a fake Gordon to jump in front of the bullet to die for the Mayor? Is that right?
No, that's not right. They knew that they would take a shot at the mayor, so they gave Gordon a bullet-resistant vest and pretended that he died when he took the bullet for the mayor.
quote:
4. Love the contrast of the Joker vs Batman. Polar opposites that equal out each other. I think the point at the end about needing to believe in Dent aka "the white knight in shining armor", somebody out in the open who gets the bad guys in the open is an interesting point, are people in Gotham that pussified? People can overcome some terrorism without being scarred for life as a collective city of millions of people.
Gotham is a lot like early 20th century Chicago. Based on the events in Batman Begins, it's got a history of mob control and of corrupt city officials, and thus Harvey Dent is attempting to purge the city of its mob influence. Batman is attempting to do the same, but he's just one masked man, while Harvey is a District Attorney and therefore a powerful public figure
Posted on 7/24/08 at 2:48 am to BS
quote:
1. Couldn't we have gotten a better background on what made the Joker who he became? I mean people don't just get that way out of the blue, you know not trusting society, wanting to terrorize people, etc. I know the whole deal about his dad terrorizing him and his mom. And something about his wife rejecting him, but come on some more back ground. Oh and did he say that he scarred his own face with the knife to make his wife feel better about her own scars? Did I catch that right?
The whole idea of the Joker is that he has no backstory. No fingerprints, no name, NOTHING. He just is this demented person. Check this thread out when you have some time
LINK
Posted on 7/24/08 at 11:09 am to Volvagia
quote:
We aren't talking about a couple. We are talking about 5, including some cops. I don't think they'll just say it happened due to the Joker (based on no evidence), they'll probably won't be able to pin it on someone, and then all investigations will be dropped. Especially as Dent's MO was NOTHING like the Joker's. Every Joker murder had some meaning attached to it, some message to the cops. These didn't.
They would investigate, and what would happen if it lead away from the victim, or even worse to Dent?
At least here, Batman would been seen fleeing from the scene of a crime, making him a prime suspect by default.
I hear what you're saying man, but I still think in that situation, when a terrorist psychopath has basically held an entire city hostage and destroyed half the city, what is 5 more dead people? I don't think anyone would blink an eye at 2 dead patrolmen when he's just executed the mayor, the DA, a judge, the police commissioner, almost the new police commissioner and his family, blown up a hospital, destroyed half the city streets and countless vehicles and buildings, and held two ferry boats hostage trying to force them to blow each other up. I just don't think those five bodies would be getting the headlines, especially when at least two of them were gangsters anyway and one of the cops was dirty and helped The Joker.
quote:
Less than 24 hours prior they wanted him to turn himself in because of the Joker. Someone lied in his stead, Batman still didn't show his face, and 20+ people died as a direct result.
And the events of that night (hostage situation) were arugably a direct result of Batman's actions. I doubt helping make it better would do much towards the whole PR position.
Do you really think people would have blamed Batman for all that stuff? Not to be too inflammatory here, but that's like blaming the US government for 9/11. A terrorist kills people to get a crime fighter to stop fighting crime and its the crime fighters fault?
No. People were angry and scared at first, and wanted Batman to turn himself in, but it became obvious (it should have been obvious to begin with which is what Dent said at the press conference) that The Joker wouldn't have stopped the killing anyway. Everyone had figured that out by then.
Hell, The Joker even put a bounty on the guy's head who was going to reveal Batman's identity. He didn't want Batman to come out anymore. Everyone knew that it wasn't about Batman at that point, but The Joker was just playing games.
Batman had beaten The Joker. He and Dent would have been heroes and no one would have cared about 5 dead people in a city that was ripped to shreds.
The movie was called The Dark Knight, and that's why Batman took the fall. He had to become "The Dark Knight". I just wish they had found a better explanation for why he had to do it.
This post was edited on 7/24/08 at 11:12 am
Posted on 7/24/08 at 1:25 pm to Tiger Voodoo
For the people who watched TDK a second time, what are some of the things I should pay more attention to the second time around?
Posted on 7/24/08 at 1:56 pm to LSUlunatic
how are batman and rachel able to survive the fall from that building, land on a car and carry on a conversation right after?
Posted on 7/24/08 at 2:55 pm to luke18
The deal with Joker's scar stories is that they're all pretty much fabrications as far as I can tell. If he were to have continued talking with Batman about them, he likely would have told yet another completely different account of how they were created.
I think the Joker just likes to frick with people about his scars while creating new backstories for himself. Knowing the character's psyche, he probably did it to himself for the hell of it.
I think the Joker just likes to frick with people about his scars while creating new backstories for himself. Knowing the character's psyche, he probably did it to himself for the hell of it.
This post was edited on 7/24/08 at 2:56 pm
Posted on 7/24/08 at 3:02 pm to CornDogCologne
quote:
The deal with Joker's scar stories is that they're all pretty much fabrications as far as I can tell. If he were to have continued talking with Batman about them, he likely would have told yet another completely different account of how they were created.
I think the Joker just likes to frick with people about his scars while creating new backstories for himself. Knowing the character's psyche, he probably did it to himself for the hell of it.
Agreed 100%.
Posted on 7/24/08 at 3:55 pm to BS
quote:
1. Couldn't we have gotten a better background on what made the Joker who he became? I mean people don't just get that way out of the blue, you know not trusting society, wanting to terrorize people, etc.
"Some people just want to watch the world burn."
Posted on 7/24/08 at 4:07 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Tiger Voodoo
It's because they're police officers, and justice has to prevail. Regardless of how despicable the Joker is, he's innocent of those murders. Plus, as stated before, accusing the Joker might reveal the truth. Batman volunteering to take the blame is an epic heroic sacrifice, so it re-enforces his character while preserving Harvey's.
Posted on 7/24/08 at 4:13 pm to blueboy
quote:
It's because they're police officers, and justice has to prevail. Regardless of how despicable the Joker is, he's innocent of those murders. Plus, as stated before, accusing the Joker might reveal the truth. Batman volunteering to take the blame is an epic heroic sacrifice, so it re-enforces his character while preserving Harvey's.
And Batman is innocent of the murders as well.
They could have easily blamed someone else.
Posted on 7/24/08 at 4:21 pm to MrFreakinMiyagi
But he willingly took the fall
Posted on 7/24/08 at 4:22 pm to MrFreakinMiyagi
quote:
And Batman is innocent of the murders as well.
Right, but he volunteers to take the blame. Simply pinning it on someone else isn't justice.
Like I said, Batman taking the blame is his heroic sacrifice. It adds alot to his character, and as others have pointed out, Batman can easily be considered the one who sets in motion the events that destroyed Harvey. So in a sense, he's responsible for what happened to him.
Posted on 7/24/08 at 4:59 pm to blueboy
quote:
Regardless of how despicable the Joker is, he's innocent of those murders. Plus, as stated before, accusing the Joker might reveal the truth.
Again, I'm not saying they should say, "The Joker killed these men and he is guilty of the crime of murder."
I'm just saying that some unsolvable murders in a situation where the entire city and police force is under seige it is unlikely that anyone will be outraged if a couple of the murders aren't able to be pinned on one individual. The fact the man who is clearly responsible for the criminal enterprise which is the cause of the deaths, The Joker, is caught and punished would likely satisfy the citizens and the police force.
quote:
Batman volunteering to take the blame is an epic heroic sacrifice, so it re-enforces his character while preserving Harvey's.
I understand the importance of the act of Batman sacrificing himself in order to satisfy the implication of a movie titled "The Dark Knight". I'm just saying that I wish the movie would have created a more compelling reason for him to do that other than "How can we avoid people finding out that Harvey killed those 5 people."
quote:
Batman can easily be considered the one who sets in motion the events that destroyed Harvey. So in a sense, he's responsible for what happened to him.
No he can't. I think I said this in another thread, but blaming Batman for The Joker killing people because Batman won't quit fighting crime is like blaming The United States for what the terrorists did on 9/11. I don't think most rational people feel that way.
This post was edited on 7/24/08 at 5:10 pm
Posted on 7/24/08 at 5:08 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
I understand the importance of the act of Batman sacrificing himself in order to satisfy the implication of a movie titled "The Dark Knight". I'm just saying that I the movie would have created a more compelling reason for him to do that other than "How can we avoid people finding out that Harvey killed those 5 people."
I think him not revealing his idenity also had something to do with him being the Dark Knight.
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