re: Obtuse Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice TD review thread (SPOILERS p5+)

i never really got the criticism of Superman in MoS. After sitting through this botched abortion, it really does sadden me how much Snyder defaced Kal-El. What iteration of Superman is this?

I've said it before, but it really feels like Snyder took 5 very different stories starring Superman and thought it was the same core character. Superman is just a hapless fool who just bumbles his way through life, fricking up way more than helping. Then there is Lois whose relationship with Clark feels more forced than the "buildings are empty. NO ONE IS DYING IN THIS FIGHT" lines of the film.

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DC apparently is putting together movies that are too smart and cerebral for your average comic book fan that just wants mindless Pow!bAng! hulk SMASH! fun.

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zach snyder

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that are too smart and cerebral for your average comic book fan

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Quite literally the opposite is going on. Have you ever seen a James Gunn film? Curious, are you an "average" fan or have you ever read the source material before?

Please tell me one "smart" element in this movie. Let's just choose one of NUMEROUS plot holes and stupidity in the film: how does Batman know about Darkseid and the parademons enough to dream about them?

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Let's just choose one of NUMEROUS plot holes and stupidity in the film: how does Batman know about Darkseid and the parademons enough to dream about them?

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This is an example of the movie giving us a chance to 'think' about what it could mean. Let's discuss what we know about past dream sequences, namely, MoS.

We know in MoS, he was not only dreaming, but also being induced to reveal information about the codex. Some of the imagery was his subconscious, but most of it was controlled from an outside source.

Lex wanted Batman to steal the information he stole. That has been hammered out already. His entire plan was to incite the two, particularly Batman, to fight. Not surprisingly then, a cruel Superman along with fascist soldiers are the antagonists in his 'dream'.
Just like in MoS, Batman's subconscious is trying to breakthrough, although it seems he is being fed imagery. How it was done, I don't know, I've got another screening planned soon.

But whereas I choose to muse over interesting 'plot holes', others are just aghast that they were not spoon-fed every effect of the cause.

I finally got around to watching the movie today. It wasn't as bad as what some were making it out to be, but it wasn't the best movie either. A lot of people are giving Snider a lot of grief, but I don't blame him for the main issue I have of the movie. I blame WB/DC for trying to move way to fast into this movie universe. This movie should've been the 4th or 5th movie of this universe, not the 2nd. It was what I feared when I first heard about them fast tracking this universe. I don't know if any writer that could've taken that much story and come up with a movie that played it all out properly.

Superman needed at least one other stand alone movie, especially if they wanted to play out the storyline of the public fearing him. We definitely needed for Wonder Woman's movie to come out before this one so that we could've gotten to know her from a character standpoint. And having a stand alone Batman movie, maybe showing an event that causes him to start growing more and more cold and cynical (say Todd's death), would've been great.

But no, WB/DC decided they had to fast track this universe, and it showed in this movie. There was just too many factors moving that needed more background. I mean, Superman went from being introduced in the MoS, to eighteen months later the public being scared of him, to him dying. He never got to be beacon of hope and justice. The government parading his casket through the streets and having a funeral with public mourning was crazy considering they were just having a congressional hearing on whether he was a public enemy or not...which ended in the building blowing up. And they just threw a Batman at us that was trying to go out of his way to kill Superman without even trying to figure out what Superman was all about. I would be ok with that Batman had they given us a backstory of what drove Batman to that mindset (again, a Jason Todd death story would've been great). And we didn't even get to meet Wonder Woman as a character outside of her being a warrior (which I did like her in battle).

I don't think this movie was any worse than the 2nd Avengers movie or either of the Iron Man sequels. But it wasn't anywhere close to CA:WS, the 1st Iron Man, the 1st Avengers, or Guardians of the Galaxy. WB/DC made a huge mistake by not going with the format of universe building that Marvel had already proved was successful. I thought it was a mistake when I first found out they were going to go down this path, and this movie proved that I was right. They are rushing the whole universe, and it showed in this movie.

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others are just aghast that they were not spoon-fed every effect of the cause

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Or because of how poorly edited it was, cutting out progression of the plot in favor of...

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This is an example of the movie giving us a chance to 'think' about what it could mean

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Oh look at all these easter eggs! You just wait until we finally get around to this story in a few years! Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...
Instead of a story that flowed progressively, we got a jumbled mess.

Seems comic book fans went into this movie not liking how WB/DC fast tracked this universe. Then they hated it because it threw so many story lines together. They'd rather see each story line get its own movie like the comic books are able to. Realistically I don't see how that's possible with the movie medium.

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I laughed out loud when Superman trucked that guy holding a gun to Lois Lanes head

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Yeah, you knew it was gonna end badly for him, just not sure which way . I kind of wondered if Superman was going to burn his hand off.

There's a ton of info loaded into this film. I think that's part of the reason some people complain about the storyline; it's also probably the reason people improve their opinions after a second viewing.

After going through this thread, I have to wonder if DC actually encouraged the negative critics. We all knew the hardcore fanboys would see it, regardless.

I'm at the next rung; I liked the DC characters from my youth, and I like the Marvel movies we have now. My brothers and I have seen all of these films. We were discussing the bad reviews of this movie the first weekend, and wondered how DC was screwing things up so bad (and yes, I still accept the blame for bringing both of them out to see Green Lantern opening night ).

After I saw the movie Monday night, I called one of them and said "hey man, this ain't nearly as bad as we're reading online. Definitely worth seeing on the big screen". Which, interestingly, I'm hearing a lot from people who do go despite the critics, almost word for word.

Or, maybe the critics just have the wrong approach. If I want a good drama, I have a nice home theater setup, and I will watch something like that alone, where I can really relax and catch everything. For films like this, I want photorealistic depictions of the heroes, showing off their powers and skillsets. And this film definitely delivers on that premise. I don't care if they have angst or not.

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It could've been done pretty easily if they would've had patience, made a few stand alone movies to set up the characters instead of forcing a team up movie after just one individual character movie.

Again, the movie wasn't near as bad as some are saying, but if they would've just followed the proven universe building method it could've been a lot better.

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That might not work. Marvel strung a lot of movies together while there was a lack of epic blockbusters (unless you are going to call Hunger Games that). Really, no competition; Spiderman and X-Men were done, Nolan's Dark Knight was wrapping up.

Now, you have another round of X-Men, Star Wars is cranking up, Jurassic World just came out. And, of course, Marvel is in full swing.

Keep in mind that MOS didn't get stellar reviews, a lot of people thought it was too dark and violent. You don't have the momentum Marvel had after Iron Man, a smaller standalone film that bombs could kill the franchise before we get to this current film (which is going to bring a lot of money in).
A standalone reboot of Batman so soon after Nolan's series would risk worse backlash than TASM (new Spider-Man) got.
Wonder Woman has a mythos of a combination of Thor and Captain America... you risk being called out on copying one/both, and you should note that while both were successes, they weren't gigantic.
DC skipped these, trusting that the familiarity of the characters would be enough for their viewers. We do get Wonder Woman on her own soon.

Other JLA heroes: Atom and Green Arrow were beaten to the big screen by Ant-Man and Hawkeye. They're probably gonna stay on the CW, which is fine.
Flash- he's on the CW, so that's risky. Also, we've seen not just one, but 2 Quicksilvers, which will set up a lot of comparisons and scrutiny.
Aquaman... what are they going to do with him? Really big risk.
Green Lantern- first film was an abomination. Marvel showed they could rescue the Hulk, so DC might try this again. But the Hulk really does better in small doses, in the Avenger movies... we might see GL done this way too.

Captain Marvel/Shazam would be interesting. This could be the bright, colorful film everyone screams about... you have a kid involved, so there could be plenty of humor. And with Black Adam, you have a chance at a real marquee villain.

I enjoyed it, good popcorn flick.