re: Obtuse Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice TD review thread (SPOILERS p5+)

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Superman is very hard to do within an extended universe. He can hear Lois cry out for help a continent away, and be there in a second. As displayed in this movie, he can take a nuke to the face and shake it off. Honestly, even that is a little depowered from my knowledge growing up of him, as he used to be able to fly into the heart of a supernova without issues.
Plus, he's a do-gooder, not a vigilante. Again as this film shows- "well, let me go fly to South America real quick and get those folks out of that burning building, I'll be right back".
In contrast, Batman improves with a realistic setting.

How do you reconcile the two? How does Superman allow crime to get so bad, and how does he allow Batman's brand of justice terrorism?
The film tried to address that;
he saved Lois from an African warlord, and there were repercussions afterwards towards the villagers. He would need to occupy the territory (like a 1 man peacekeeping force) to combat terrorism and enforce the peace, and that's a little to repressive for his tastes (and for society- they don't want Superman to enforce anything, they only want him to save them).
In fighting Zod (and likely Doomsday), there were collateral casualties. Again, this is presented in the film. And like our own reality, these collateral folks are bitter, and probably would like to sue. Hell, if Superman was real, there would likely be a huge stack of lawsuits, both legit and frivolous, and he won't/can't pay up. That then falls on the government, most likely, and that would lead to attempts of government control. Plus, the whole xenophobia and religious aspects- how many fundamentalists would scream that he's the Antichrist? He's not even really human. As the film states, he's proof that we are not alone, and that we're not particularly special.

I don't know how you go about making this a better film, and keep him in it.

For dramatic purposes, your hero needs a legitimate challenge. Someone has to face off against Superman, and not be squashed immediately. This film used the "kidnap mama as a hostage" device, to keep Lex from suffering the same fate as the African warlord. It worked per the script, I don't know how else you get Supes to behave.

Then, the Doomsday fight. Stronger, but dumber, than Superman. The kryptonite spear was the only option; ironically it's the one option Superman can't employ himself. He can't make it, and he couldn't wield it safely. Batman made it with Luthor's tech, and in theory Wonder Woman could have used it... but then we don't get the sacrifice.

A lot has been made of "Martha". It was a little clumsy, I definitely would have thought that set of lines would have been a priority to get right, from day 1. I buy the sentiment, but would definitely have liked to have it worded a little better.
I do buy the sentiment- Batman isn't an assassin, he's worked himself up to do this. He even made a point of talking ugly: "I'm sure your parents told you that you were special, but you're not... yada yada". I get this- Batman has to kill someone because they are too powerful and dangerous, not because they are a bad or evil person. Superman is finished, Batman has won, and Supes doesn't beg for mercy or say "frick you", he says that his mother is going to die because he didn't come out and kill Batman... and although that was his only option, he still wouldn't do it.
Hits a nerve in Batman. This super being is a decent guy, who refused to kill someone undeserving, even to save his own mother. The "Martha" namedrop triggers an emotional response in Bruce (a guy who's having tormented nightmares to this day about his parents' death, and who's been driven to become what he is due to it). Batman knows he would kill to save his own mother, if given the option... (just my take). So now, he's forced to come to grips with the fact that he's about to kill a better man than he is, in the name of "doing the right thing". He rejects that, and casts his lot with Superman.
*I think that was the intent. It certainly could have been done way more eloquently. It wasn't so mangled that I missed it.

So, DC is building a universe with multiple heroes, and this is the launch. As detailed above, the Superman issue hovers over everything, complicating it.

Remove Superman, and we get a GREAT Batman movie, with a believable actor, fantastic action, and some neat schemes. Alfred and Bruce are wonderful together, they are like a pair of rogue special agents. Alfred is the mentor, but looks like he could still wield a gun if need be. He needles Bruce about "growing up" as he's growing older, little comments about extending the Wayne line. Bruce talks about using "the suit" like it's some special commando gear, just a tool in his arsenal. He's still active, but jaded and wants a higher purpose.
I don't think they could have done the Batman action scenes any better, he is both an impressive fighter and a scary "devil"... something we haven't been shown until now, not at this level. He's fricking terrifying to the girls and the cops in that apartment building, and a straight up beast against Luthor's thugs.
I love this Batman, he's worth the price of admission, and God, I want more of him!

Wonder Woman- sleek, suave and stylish as Ms Prince. Very exotic, and capable of matching Bruce at his games of intrigue in the rich settings. She's like a Mossad agent, or a Bond girl (and not the helpless version). She fricking toys with Bruce. "Typical boy"...
And then she kicks into action- just WOW. If this were in Marvel's universe, she handles Tony Stark in the rich man world, and then goes a few rounds with Thor, and you're not sure who would win. If the gauntlets (forget the shield) deflect heat vision, I think they withstand anything else the comic book world has to throw at them.
And what comes across, is that she's enjoying fighting against Doomsday (who is stronger than Superman). "I've killed monsters from other worlds before", with a little smirk . No fear, she just chops off a fist, and intends to whittle his arse down. And don't let her get that lasso on you, it's all over then.

To me, this movie does it's job. It has enough action to justify the blockbuster title (and that's what comic book movies are, really). It gives us 2 really, really good new characters to go along with Superman (who's a little more fleshed out than he was in MOS).
And between Batman's nightmares and Lex's mirroring statements about the impending devils from the heavens, it sets the stage for something down the road, a reason to create more films.

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Fantastic review, spot on!

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I've got a question. How pissed would people be if The Joker in the DCEU turned out to be Jason Todd?

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Devin Faraci would call Child Services to take Zach Snyder's children away from him.

I'm sure they'll change him up some, but he won't be Jason Todd. I doubt WB/DC would allow that.

With that being said, I'm a bit concerned about Suicide Squad. I've heard some rumblings of the studio interfering this late and adding more humor to the film. Obviously, it's a reaction to BvS. I hope it's not true because I'm very excited for SS.

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I'm sure they'll change him up some, but he won't be Jason Todd. I doubt WB/DC would allow that.

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Yea, probably not. I'm not tied to character origins, so it wouldn't bother me. I would enjoy the arcs between him and Batman. There would be a dynamic there that we've never seen before. But, I think the backlash would be HUGE and in the end not worth it. He is Dick Grayson in TDKR sequel, though. That's another theory out there.

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Zack Snyder confirms in the #DCEU Robin died about 10 years ago, during a run-in with a young #Joker.

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Yea, they can still spin that. He "dies" in Red Hood, also.

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With that being said, I'm a bit concerned about Suicide Squad. I've heard some rumblings of the studio interfering this late and adding more humor to the film. Obviously, it's a reaction to BvS. I hope it's not true because I'm very excited for SS.

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Great. More studio interference. Maybe for the best in this case.

This movie seems to be the mother of all Easter eggs (whichI don't mind at all).

At Supes military funeral procession, 5 f-16s do a fly over in formation. But as they pass by, a fourth one goes straight up while, the others remain in formation. Has this been spoiler discussed yet???

I'll post the link in a sec

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At Supes military funeral procession, 5 f-16s do a fly over in formation. But as they pass by, a fourth one goes straight up while, the others remain in formation. Has this been spoiler discussed yet???

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Not sure the significance there???

Also, while on the idea of spoilers- the premonition dreams.
Flash does a cameo, pushing through time to tell Bruce Wayne that "Lois is the key"... but that's not the same feel as the desert dream, the one that suggests Darkseid is coming (and Superman is bad). THAT is much more coherent, and it (apparently) is sent to both Bruce and Lex. It's like someone is trying to get a couple of powerful, resourceful guys to stop it in advance.

Who do we know of, that can push dreams across to others? Martian Manhunter? Zatanna? Saturn Girl? Dr Fate? I'm not too familiar with any psychic DC characters.

Isn't that merely a variation of the traditional "missing man" formations at military aviator's funerals?

So, it could have deeper meaning or merely be something that had a cool visual for the scene.

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Isn't that merely a variation of the traditional "missing man" formations at military aviator's funerals?

So, it could have deeper meaning or merely be something that had a cool visual for the scene.

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That's all I took it as, the military honoring him. He got a hero's funeral.

Don't see how it could be an "easter egg", unless I'm missing something here.

I think the hints were laid out mid-movie, with the introductions of Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg, and the multiple references to Darkseid.

The only other ones I caught:
I figure "the joke's on you" on Robin's suit leads to the Joker and Suicide Squad (quite possible that Wayne's references to others who went bad, Robin --> Joker).

Mildly curious about Wonder Woman's remark about killing monsters from other worlds before; she doesn't seem prone to hyperbole. This suggests she's fought more than just human foes, and that there are other realms (gonna go with the "Thor" analogy, instead of saying outer space) in contact with Earth. If so, her movie might really open up some fantasy aspects to this.

Interesting