re: Nothing happens in Empire Strikes Back until the last 20 minutes

Posted by tigerpimpbot

Chairman of the Pool Board

Member since Nov 2011

67105 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 1:01 pm to OMLandshark

quote:
It's just sloppy, could have used a few more rewrites, and not pandered to children to make toys.

Yeah I can see that now. But back then, they had us on the hook!

Posted by OMLandshark

Member since Apr 2009

109740 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 1:33 pm to blueboy

quote:
That's not at all what he said. You're just inferring shite to support your argument.

Ummm, no, that's exactly what Yoda (and Obi Wan) say to Luke:

quote:
Yoda: Stopped they must be; on this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now - if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did - you will become an agent of evil.
Obi-Wan: Patience.
Luke: And sacrifice Han and Leia?
Yoda: If you honor what they fight for? Yes.
Obi-Wan: If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.
Luke: I understand. R2? Fire up the converters.
Obi-Wan: Luke! Don't give in to hate. That leads to the Dark Side.
Yoda: Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.

2 ...

Posted by Othello

the Neptonian Steel Mines

Member since Aug 2013

22965 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 2:38 pm to OMLandshark

Ben: That boy is our only hope.

Yoda: No! There is another.

No one ever liked Jedi better, it was panned for being a kids movie. It had some cool scenes but Empire was, is, and will always be more respected by the vast majority.

The Emperor's scenes were great but the outdoor ewok shite was horrible. They used twigs and shite to defeat the technologically advanced Empire.

This post was edited on 1/14/16 at 2:39 pm

2 ...

Posted by craigbiggio

Member since Dec 2009

31805 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 2:44 pm to Othello

I can understand not liking ESB, but people saying RotJ is better

Posted by mizzoubuckeyeiowa

Member since Nov 2015

35715 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 2:50 pm to steeltiger17

Uh, the opening scene with the At-Ats is the best scene in the series

Posted by FreddieMac

Baton Rouge

Member since Jun 2010

21159 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 3:05 pm to Othello

quote:
The Emperor's scenes were great but the outdoor ewok shite was horrible. They used twigs and shite to defeat the technologically advanced Empire.

He originally wanted the Wookies to be the ones that finally helped defeat the Empire. Apparently, Lucas was forced to put EWOKs in because of financing. To get the money to make the story, the studio or someone wanted more kid friendly potential toys. Without that he would not get the money to finish the saga.

EVERYTHING else about ROTJ is just as good as ESB. Actually, I would say the final scenes of Vader's sacrifice was the most powerful of the trilogy.

Posted by blueboy

Member since Apr 2006

56603 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 3:12 pm to OMLandshark

quote:
Ummm, no, that's exactly what Yoda (and Obi Wan) say to Luke:

None of that changes the fact that Luke going there does nothing to change what happened, which was my original reply to your nitpicking of Jedi.

Posted by Master of Sinanju

Member since Feb 2012

11372 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 3:36 pm to steeltiger17

On the ESB BR, Kershner, I think, comments on people saying Empire is the GOAT. He said that at the time, it was a bit of a disappointment. People liked it, but it was a bit of a downer and not what people expected.

Casual fans may not like it as much, but if you are invested in the characters and universe, its a great movie.

Posted by OMLandshark

Member since Apr 2009

109740 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 3:55 pm to FreddieMac

quote:
He originally wanted the Wookies to be the ones that finally helped defeat the Empire. Apparently, Lucas was forced to put EWOKs in because of financing. To get the money to make the story, the studio or someone wanted more kid friendly potential toys. Without that he would not get the money to finish the saga.

I don't buy that for one fricking second. Come on, it is not only the sequel to the highest grossing film of all time, but also to the highest grossing sequel of all time. By the time Lucas gets control of Jedi, he has complete creative control. Thus he destroyed everything good in the initial drafts. Really the only thing Lucas kept completely intact were the Throne Room scenes. Everything else was scratched in the name of merchandising. It wasn't some evil overlord over Lucas who made him do it: it was Lucas himself who was the greedy overlord and changed everything.

Posted by OMLandshark

Member since Apr 2009

109740 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 3:57 pm to blueboy

quote:
None of that changes the fact that Luke going there does nothing to change what happened, which was my original reply to your nitpicking of Jedi.

What's the big deal if a character learns from his frick ups? Yeah, Luke fricked up and almost got killed and considered going to the Dark Side as Obi Wan and Yoda warned him about. The fact is he put none of these teachings in going to save Han in Jedi.

Posted by blueboy

Member since Apr 2006

56603 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 4:14 pm to OMLandshark

quote:
What's the big deal if a character learns from his frick ups? Yeah, Luke fricked up and almost got killed and considered going to the Dark Side as Obi Wan and Yoda warned him about. The fact is he put none of these teachings in going to save Han in Jedi.

That has nothing to do with anything I mentioned. You were nitpicking the plot of Jedi and I pointed out one problem with Empire. Does Luke "destroy all for which they have fought and suffered?" No he does not.

It doesn't mean I dislike Empire. I'm just applying the same scrutiny to it that you were applying to Jedi. The "everybody agrees that _________ " line is a very old, very cheap tactic, and it's sad that some think they can argue others into changing their personal preferences.

Posted by OMLandshark

Member since Apr 2009

109740 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 4:35 pm to blueboy

quote:
That has nothing to do with anything I mentioned. You were nitpicking the plot of Jedi and I pointed out one problem with Empire. Does Luke "destroy all for which they have fought and suffered?" No he does not.

It doesn't mean I dislike Empire. I'm just applying the same scrutiny to it that you were applying to Jedi. The "everybody agrees that _________ " line is a very old, very cheap tactic, and it's sad that some think they can argue others into changing their personal preferences.

That's not a problem; it's an obvious lack of judgement on Luke's part that everyone warns him about. They warn him that one of 3 things would happen:

1) He gets killed by Vader.
2) He is turned to the Dark Side by Vader.
3) He survives and saves Han and Leia, but those chances were almost zero.

Yoda and Obi Wan knew Vader would have Luke cornered and he'd have to choose death or the Dark Side. Well, Luke chose death by jumping thousands of feet. The fact that Luke escaped with his life is really a fluke. If he didn't have a Force connection to Leia, he was dead. The chances of Luke and the others escaping in the manner that he did from Vader were very slim.

On the other hand, the things in Return of the Jedi are complete jumps in logic that make no sense. I don't understand what exactly they were planning and why. Luke going to Vader makes complete sense, especially given his immaturity.

This post was edited on 1/14/16 at 4:38 pm

Posted by blueboy

Member since Apr 2006

56603 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 5:22 pm to OMLandshark

Thank you for yet another unnecessary explanation that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Again,

quote:
Does Luke "destroy all for which they have fought and suffered?" No he does not.

No he does not. His being there has no effect on anything that happens to them.

My point, which you're repeatedly, obviously missing is that you can shoot holes in a lot of fantasy and sci-fi. It's tailor made for it.

Posted by dallastiger55

Jennings, LA

Member since Jan 2010

27897 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 5:30 pm to RollDatRoll

quote:
This is a very unpopular opinion but Return of Jedi > ESB

x2

dont get me wrong, i LOVE ESB, but the middle part of the movie bores me. the Yoda scenes are drawn out big time

Hoth and the cloud city were badass

Posted by Methuselah

On da Riva

Member since Jan 2005

23350 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 6:25 pm to Big Scrub TX

quote:
Agree. I started a thread about this once and was shouted down. My question was "what was Luke's actual plan?".

I always thought that Luke was full of piss and vinegar and was feeling his "Jedi" oats, thinking he could handle anything that he encountered. He knew he had power and was kind of cocky and careless with it.

He did rescue them in the end but I think his arrogance did put them in a lot of danger.

Posted by 19

Flux Capacitor, Fluxing

Member since Nov 2007

33276 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 6:59 pm to dallastiger55

ESB > Jedi

The Imperial March > Yub-Nub

Argument came up in the last decade? Lulz.

I swear this thread is almost as bad as the Death Star Politics scene from Clerks- and this argument raged long before 1994.

Posted by medtiger

Member since Sep 2003

21685 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 7:02 pm to steeltiger17

I think the reason some believe ROTJ is the better film has to do with most of us being kids when these movies were released. No kids like to see the bad guys win like they did in ESB. From a young person's viewpoint, ROTJ is easily the more entertaining movie. However, as I grew to appreciate the trilogy and great movie making in general, it became obvious that ESB was the best of the trilogy. ROTJ did exactly what Lucas set out for it to do...appeal to the younger generation to sell merchandise while also nicely wrapping up the story.

This post was edited on 1/14/16 at 7:28 pm

Posted by Sasquatch Smash

Member since Nov 2007

24150 posts

Posted on 1/14/16 at 7:25 pm to 19

quote:
The Imperial March > Yub-Nub

Sadly Yub Nub no longer appears in the latest "special" versions of "Jedi."

But thankfully, Lucas gave us the far superior song "Jedi Rocks!" in that film as well as a new ending song to make up for taking away Yub Nub.... {sarcasm}