re: I remember when the M/TV board was one of the last bastions to avoid all the political BS

We know...it was her turn.

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Don’t bring a problem, and there won’t be a problem.

If movies and tv would dial back on their politics and social agendas, the commentary would also dial back.

As for me, if it’s there, I’m going to call it out. I only want to see stories. I don’t want to be lectured and brainwashed. Tired of Hollywood’s bullshite.

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This only makes sense if politics being brought into Movies and TV were a new phenomenom.

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This only makes sense if politics being brought into Movies and TV were a new phenomenom.

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Exactly. Movies have ALWAYS been political statements. To bring up an example on the first page, THE GODFATHER is a criticism of capitalism and the lie of the American dream. The movies argued that there isn't much difference between "legitimate" business and a crime syndicate.

The difference now, is that I feel the audience is incapable of discussing ideas like this intelligently. It's all just waving the flag for their team, denouncing anyone who has a different opinion, and throwing a hissy fit over demographics (which, by the way, isn't even a new panic -- Welles cast a primarily black cast for OTHELLO on Broadway before he made CITIZEN KANE, and people flipped out just like they are now).

This board always had those political discussions, but it is now lacking civility and intelligence. We used to engage ideas in a more intelligent fashion, instead of in a reactionary way. But more importantly, the board was more collegial, and people could disagree and still be friendly with one another. A lot of the partisan sniping now is people talking past each other with no real attempt to engage in the other person's argument on an honest level. And frankly, that's boring as hell. Your political grandstanding is not interesting.

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Exactly. Movies have ALWAYS been political statements. To bring up an example on the first page, THE GODFATHER is a criticism of capitalism and the lie of the American dream. The movies argued that there isn't much difference between "legitimate" business and a crime syndicate. 

The difference now, is that I feel the audience is incapable of discussing ideas like this intelligently. It's all just waving the flag for their team, denouncing anyone who has a different opinion, and throwing a hissy fit over demographics (which, by the way, isn't even a new panic -- Welles cast a primarily black cast for OTHELLO on Broadway before he made CITIZEN KANE, and people flipped out just like they are now). 

This board always had those political discussions, but it is now lacking civility and intelligence. We used to engage ideas in a more intelligent fashion, instead of in a reactionary way. But more importantly, the board was more collegial, and people could disagree and still be friendly with one another. A lot of the partisan sniping now is people talking past each other with no real attempt to engage in the other person's argument on an honest level. And frankly, that's boring as hell. Your political grandstanding is not interesting.

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Man, this is a damn good post.

I haven't been on tigerdroppings in a while, yesterday was the first time in 6 months or so. I clicked on m/tv board first as I always did. Talk about disappointing. To see almost every thread about TLJ was to be expected, but to see almost every one turning political/agenda based was pretty crappy to see.

I hate talking politics, especially online. That's one reason I'm neutral when it comes to it. And that allows me to go into a theatre without blinders on and not focusing on an agenda, or caring if there is slightly one, as long as it's not over the top.

I watched the movie and as we walked out I told my wife that that was pretty underwhelming. I gave zero thought to political agenda or how it's putting down male characters. I thought is was underwhelming because of the story, and that Carrie Fisher was still a horrendous actress and they decided to have her as a main character.

Breaking down every single male character in the show and giving an explanation of why his character was minimized/degraded/or however you want to put it to some degree is, I'm sorry, just plain b.s.

It's like when espn had a live auction fantasy draft. Certain people threw a fit because it looked like black men were being auctioned off as slaves. Despite there being white people bid on as well, but you chose not to acknowledge that in your feelings. If you were offended by that, you are just looking for a reason to be offended by something. If you were actually offended by how males were portrayed in TLJ, or for political reasons you were pissed about it, you are just looking for a reason to be mad and failing to acknowledge any other views of the movie other than what you want to be upset with.

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I don't think you've stepped back far enough to think about what this means to children. We are a long ways away from the time when a ridiculous dumb woman (as well played by Lucille Ball) was deemed acceptable by many in the general public. But that extension of decency should implicitly be a common decency that applies to everyone.

If is fine to have a Barney Fife if you have an Andy to balance him out. You can have a Homer or Peter Griffin but you ought to think at some point about there being some admirable male characters who are the equal of the women.

It would not be ok if the genders were reversed and that is all you need to realize to decide the subtext is immoral.

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Additionally, regarding iwy's comment, calling it out, or hypothesizing that exists is not the same as wanting it silenced or being offended by it. The calls that he is relating this to are usually people who not only say something exists (usually with tenuous logic anyways), and that it shouldn't be allowed to exist and it should be silenced.

I feel people can make whatever films what they want and espouse whatever political beliefs they desire. I think it's unwise to be so cavalier with a property like Star Wars, and I wish there was both more forethought and more respect paid to the material. It disappoints me greatly that someone allowed it to happen, that's all.

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I haven't been on tigerdroppings in a while, yesterday was the first time in 6 months or so. I clicked on m/tv board first as I always did. Talk about disappointing. To see almost every thread about TLJ was to be expected, but to see almost every one turning political/agenda based was pretty crappy to see.

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It's not that it's all political, it's that it's BORING politics. And no one is actually engaging an argument. It's just each side virtue signalling to their allies.


NOW, I'M JUST GONNA TALK STAR WARS FOR A SECOND. THERE MIGHT BE MILD SPOILERS, BUT I'LL TRY TO BE VAGUE


Yeah, I want to have jumping off point to talk about some of the ideas in the movie, but there just hasn't been one. To limit it to just the politics of storytelling, star Wars is fascinating as a "kill your idols" movie. We're eight movies in (nine if you count Rogue One), we were due for a critical deconstruction of the universe. Benico del Toro's character is the best thing to happen to Star Wars: it essentially casts the bounty hunters as the only people who see the universe as it is. There is no Dark side/Light Side.

But there is, as its a critical moment for Finn, too. And for him, in universe, that's a CONSTRUCTIVE moment, not a deconstructive one.

But I'm also predisposed to liking movies about storytelling. And that's what a lot of TLJ was. Also, to address Freaux's point: we've had WAY too much respect and awe towards Star Wars. I'm thrilled someone came in and smashed the holy church of pop culture up a bit. Keeping the characters cast in amber did them no favors. I far prefer them as "real" people, allowed to make human mistakes.

OKAY, ENOUGH STAR WARS. THIS THREAD REALLY ISN'T ABOUT THE MOVIE.

Despite there being one million threads on TLJ, there hasn't been a GOOD one yet. As soon as a thread gets going that has interesting discussion, I'll post my thoughts.

But, short version: I really liked it, probably for the exact reasons why most people hate it. It absolutely IS an attack on Star Wars fandom. To paraphrase the film: the Force doesn't belong to anyone.

Eagerly awaiting your post...

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I'll own it, I did it.

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You know I have nothing but respect for you, I was glad to see your posts when I got on. When I said that nit picking every male character was b.s., that was no hard feelings

I just think there were plenty of arguments against those reasons listed, it wasnt this black and white. The diversity or diminishing the male role, however you want to put it, is in itself a bland argument.

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Maybe I was looking for more wrong with it, sure, my initial reaction of the film was disliking nearly everything about how it was put together, that stuff came later when I tried to figure out why I disliked it so much, why it left such a bad taste in my mouth when I did enjoy TFA and Rogue One. So maybe that's a fair assessment. Honestly, I think it came mostly from my feeling that they ruined Kylo in the film and have done nothing with Hux. These are the two leaders of the First Order, an extremely large militaristic organization that has apparently achieved quite a bit of success. Their ineptness is unnatural in the film, regardless of whether that is politically motivated or not, it doesn't make any sense to me in terms of the narrative. In short, it feels like they are inept for some reason that is unrelated to the plot, something exterior to the movie itself.

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Looking for more stuff to hate on or complain about seems to be the trend. There were weak points in the story, they, imo, botched certain characters (Snoke for example, someone with that much power would have easily knew a lightsaber was moving next to him), unexplainable scenes (Leia doesnt get blown up or even die in space but just reaches her hand out and floats like mary poppins back to the ship), and just bad acting (obviously Carrie Fisher, that was to be expected, but her acting has somehow gotten worse).

I feel like there were plenty of reasons to complain, if you didnt enjoy the movie, other than politics. I just dont get it. Thats what I meant when I said people are just looking for something to get offended or complain about. I talked to maybe 10 friends about the movie before I got on here, and not a single person talked about there being some agenda behind the movie. I get on here, and thats %90 of the conversation.