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Runs scored the most underrated baseball stat?
Posted on 8/9/11 at 11:09 am
Posted on 8/9/11 at 11:09 am
You probably can't find a traditional stat that seems to coincide more with "greatness" or HOF more than runs. Its something people talk about but it never gets the mention that HR, RBI's, or even hits get on a per season or career level. I bolded the guys that aren't in the HOF yet but will almost certainly(or should) get in and italicized the guys that aren't in and probably won't get in.(obviously there are some that could go either way) The guys already in have a + sign. That puts it at roughly 65 of the top 71 players in career runs scored will be in the HOF. I don't think you will find a higher % of players in the HOF for any traditional stat with a sample size as high as the top 71. Even a very good stat like WAR, is on par with the same %. This stat should be talked about more IMO.
Thoughts?
1. Rickey Henderson+ 2295
2. Ty Cobb+ 2246
3. Barry Bonds 2227
4. Hank Aaron+ 2174
Babe Ruth+ 2174
6. Pete Rose 2165
7. Willie Mays+ 2062
8. Cap Anson+ 1999
9. Stan Musial+ 1949
10. Lou Gehrig+ 1888
11. Tris Speaker+ 1882
12. Mel Ott+ 1859
13. Craig Biggio 1844
14. Frank Robinson+ 1829
15. Eddie Collins+ 1821
16. Carl Yastrzemski+ 1816
17. Alex Rodriguez 1810
18. Ted Williams+ 1798
19. Paul Molitor+ 1782
20. Charlie Gehringer+ 1774
21. Jimmie Foxx+ 1751
22. Derek Jeter 1742
23. Honus Wagner+ 1739
24. Jim O'Rourke+ 1729
25. Jesse Burkett+ 1720
26. Willie Keeler+ 1719
27. Billy Hamilton+ 1697
28. Bid McPhee+ 1684
29. Mickey Mantle+ 1676
30. Dave Winfield+ 1669
31. Rafael Palmeiro 1663
32. Ken Griffey 1662
33. Joe Morgan+ 1650
34. Cal Ripken+ 1647
35. Jimmy Ryan 1643
36. George Van Haltren 1642
37. Gary Sheffield 1636
38. Robin Yount+ 1632
39. Eddie Murray+ 1627
40. Paul Waner+ 1627
41. Fred Clarke+ 1622
42. Al Kaline+ 1622
43. Roger Connor+ 1620
44. Johnny Damon (questionable) 1617
45. Lou Brock+ 1610
46. Jake Beckley+ 1602
47. Ed Delahanty+ 1600
48. Bill Dahlen 1590
49. George Brett+ 1583
50. Rogers Hornsby+ 1579
51. Tim Raines 1571
52. Hugh Duffy+ 1554
53. Reggie Jackson+ 1551
54. Jim Thome 1551
55. Max Carey+ 1545
56. George Davis+ 1545
57. Manny Ramirez 1544
58. Chipper Jones 1542
59. Frankie Frisch+ 1532
60. Kenny Lofton 1528
61. Dan Brouthers+ 1523
62. Tom Brown 1523
63. Jeff Bagwell 1517
64. Sam Rice+ 1514
65. Wade Boggs+ 1513
66. Eddie Mathews+ 1509
67. Roberto Alomar+ 1508
68. Al Simmons+ 1507
69. Mike Schmidt+ 1506
70. Nap Lajoie+ 1504
71. Frank Thomas 1494
Thoughts?
1. Rickey Henderson+ 2295
2. Ty Cobb+ 2246
3. Barry Bonds 2227
4. Hank Aaron+ 2174
Babe Ruth+ 2174
6. Pete Rose 2165
7. Willie Mays+ 2062
8. Cap Anson+ 1999
9. Stan Musial+ 1949
10. Lou Gehrig+ 1888
11. Tris Speaker+ 1882
12. Mel Ott+ 1859
13. Craig Biggio 1844
14. Frank Robinson+ 1829
15. Eddie Collins+ 1821
16. Carl Yastrzemski+ 1816
17. Alex Rodriguez 1810
18. Ted Williams+ 1798
19. Paul Molitor+ 1782
20. Charlie Gehringer+ 1774
21. Jimmie Foxx+ 1751
22. Derek Jeter 1742
23. Honus Wagner+ 1739
24. Jim O'Rourke+ 1729
25. Jesse Burkett+ 1720
26. Willie Keeler+ 1719
27. Billy Hamilton+ 1697
28. Bid McPhee+ 1684
29. Mickey Mantle+ 1676
30. Dave Winfield+ 1669
31. Rafael Palmeiro 1663
32. Ken Griffey 1662
33. Joe Morgan+ 1650
34. Cal Ripken+ 1647
35. Jimmy Ryan 1643
36. George Van Haltren 1642
37. Gary Sheffield 1636
38. Robin Yount+ 1632
39. Eddie Murray+ 1627
40. Paul Waner+ 1627
41. Fred Clarke+ 1622
42. Al Kaline+ 1622
43. Roger Connor+ 1620
44. Johnny Damon (questionable) 1617
45. Lou Brock+ 1610
46. Jake Beckley+ 1602
47. Ed Delahanty+ 1600
48. Bill Dahlen 1590
49. George Brett+ 1583
50. Rogers Hornsby+ 1579
51. Tim Raines 1571
52. Hugh Duffy+ 1554
53. Reggie Jackson+ 1551
54. Jim Thome 1551
55. Max Carey+ 1545
56. George Davis+ 1545
57. Manny Ramirez 1544
58. Chipper Jones 1542
59. Frankie Frisch+ 1532
60. Kenny Lofton 1528
61. Dan Brouthers+ 1523
62. Tom Brown 1523
63. Jeff Bagwell 1517
64. Sam Rice+ 1514
65. Wade Boggs+ 1513
66. Eddie Mathews+ 1509
67. Roberto Alomar+ 1508
68. Al Simmons+ 1507
69. Mike Schmidt+ 1506
70. Nap Lajoie+ 1504
71. Frank Thomas 1494
This post was edited on 8/9/11 at 11:19 am
4
Posted on 8/9/11 at 11:20 am to barry
quote:
31. Rafael Palmeiro 1663
no way he is HOF.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 11:22 am to C
quote:Only cause of the steroids. His numbers alone would have him in by a country mile and many believe that he'll get in eventually once all the Roiders start getting it.
no way he is HOF.
This post was edited on 8/9/11 at 11:24 am
Posted on 8/9/11 at 11:25 am to barry
To me, it's still an "out of the player's control" stat, except in the case of the HR.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 11:31 am to barry
You could sell me on a runs+RBIs weighted per game or something.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 11:39 am to Jcorye1
When you think about it, runs scored is just as meaningful as RBI. I mean you rely on your teammates just as much to be on base to get the RBI as you do to get you home when you are on base.
And you actually have control over what you do once you get on base (taking an extra base, stealing, making it home on a hit).
I would be interested to see HOF-level players with RBIs and mediocre runs scored or vice versa. It has to be rare for a long career.
And you actually have control over what you do once you get on base (taking an extra base, stealing, making it home on a hit).
I would be interested to see HOF-level players with RBIs and mediocre runs scored or vice versa. It has to be rare for a long career.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 12:19 pm to lsumatt
quote:
When you think about it, runs scored is just as meaningful as RBI. I mean you rely on your teammates just as much to be on base to get the RBI as you do to get you home when you are on base.
I was thinking the same thing that runs are "out of your control", but never thought about how they are similar to RBIs. I think it's just natural to put more weight in a stat where the part that is in your "control" is hitting, rather than one where your part is running. However, I think runs are important and are a good indicator of a good player. I think you could look at some interesting stats with runs involved.
I like the idea of a weighted Runs+RBI stat.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 12:21 pm to bamafan425
a player has more control over the amount of runs he scores than he does how many RBI's he has
Posted on 8/9/11 at 12:22 pm to lsumatt
quote:+1
When you think about it, runs scored is just as meaningful as RBI. I mean you rely on your teammates just as much to be on base to get the RBI as you do to get you home when you are on base.
And you actually have control over what you do once you get on base (taking an extra base, stealing, making it home on a hit).
I would be interested to see HOF-level players with RBIs and mediocre runs scored or vice versa. It has to be rare for a long career.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 12:31 pm to OBUDan
quote:
To me, it's still an "out of the player's control" stat, except in the case of the HR.
Except that you still need to get on base a lot and be a good baserunner in order to score a lot of runs.
This post was edited on 8/9/11 at 12:31 pm
Posted on 8/9/11 at 1:09 pm to barry
quote:
65. Wade Boggs+ 1513
That surprises me as to how low it is, given how much he got on base and he played for 18 years.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 1:11 pm to Sophandros
Jeff Bagwell was a good example of an excellent and underrated base runner, especially for a power hitter. He had 4 consecutive seasons of 124 runs scored or more including a season of 152 which is the best total since 1936.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 1:18 pm to Pilot Tiger
quote:
a player has more control over the amount of runs he scores than he does how many RBI's he has
Word.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 2:23 pm to OBUDan
quote:
To me, it's still an "out of the player's control" stat, except in the case of the HR.
How are RBI's "in the players control" except in the case of a HR? I mean if the guys ahead of you don't get on base, how do you control that? RBIs depend on the players ahead of you to get on, runs depend on the players after you to get you in. Hell, at least you can try to steal home for a run if you wanted.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 2:44 pm to Pilot Tiger
quote:very true and very overlooked
a player has more control over the amount of runs he scores than he does how many RBI's he has
Posted on 8/9/11 at 3:14 pm to Ford Frenzy
'The object of the game is to score the most runs, and he scored the most runs.' a teammate of Ty Cobb
Posted on 8/9/11 at 3:43 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
'The object of the game is to score the most runs
Obviously from a team perspective runs scored is pretty much all that matters at the end of the day.
But you can't judge players on runs scored. You could put anybody #2 in the Yankees lineup and they would score 100+ runs this year. Granderson is having an amazing year, but if he was batting #2 in Seattle he wouldn't be on a record setting runs scored pace. He would be struggling to get to 100.
Runs scored and RBI are probably the two most team driven stats in baseball behind wins for pitchers.
This post was edited on 8/9/11 at 3:44 pm
Posted on 8/9/11 at 3:49 pm to 1ranter1
quote:
But you can't judge players on runs scored.
We are talking on a career total level here. So the best players in baseball just all happened to be on really good teams and hence they scored a bunch of runs? Career runs scored is a perfectly acceptable way to judge a player in baseball.
Posted on 8/9/11 at 4:00 pm to barry
Judging anybody on one stat is a fools errand, but you could do a lot worse than runs scored, which is pretty underrated. It's even more underrated at a team level. We should absolutely rank offenses by runs scored. That's the whole point of offense - who cares how you get there?
Posted on 8/9/11 at 4:06 pm to Baloo
quote:
Judging anybody on one stat is a fools errand, but you could do a lot worse than runs scored, which is pretty underrated. It's even more underrated at a team level. We should absolutely rank offenses by runs scored. That's the whole point of offense - who cares how you get there?
Ron Gardenhire cares how he got there... small ball.
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