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re: My nostalgia for Larry Bird- Magic Johnson era NBA basketball has reached absurd levels
Posted on 8/15/24 at 12:58 pm to lsusa
Posted on 8/15/24 at 12:58 pm to lsusa
quote:
Teams had identities. They had players that you had followed in college. Players had charisma. So many players in todays game seem generic.
There were rivalries. Top guys spent the first 10-12 years of their career with one team. Barkley was considered an extreme outlier for a star player.
The guys respected each other (outside of Isiah Thomas) as players but wanted to outperform each other and beat them to prove who was top dog. AAU killed basketball. These guys are handed legacies the moment they are drafted and only have to do the minimum to “keep” them (LeBron).
There’s a reason why the top 3-4 guys in the NBA are international players. They didn’t come up in AAU scene. They actually learned legit basketball skills and prioritized winning. They don’t care about being buddies with their opponents. They want to outperform them and beat them.
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Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:03 pm to SlowFlowPro
“Today's strategy would be better in the rules of the 80s/90s b/c defense was much more limited and easier to exploit.”
Another misconception based on ignorance
Another misconception based on ignorance
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:06 pm to SlowFlowPro
It’s not a lie, I didn’t quote you, I just gave a general basis and used a well known modern coach as an example. You’re reaching and getting desperate but you won’t win this one because you’re at a major disadvantage when it comes to actual knowledge of the past as has been clearly illustrated in this thread.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:09 pm to Madking
quote:
“Today's strategy would be better in the rules of the 80s/90s b/c defense was much more limited and easier to exploit.”
Another misconception based on ignorance
I'd love to hear you explain why that's wrong.
Fee free
Why would today's strategy not be better against a much more limited defense? How would the limitations imposed on the defense not make offense easier to exploit?
You do realize nothing in the rules today prevents teams from playing defensive styles like in the 90s, right? And the number of teams who employ this pure-man defense is 0, right?
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:11 pm to Madking
quote:
I just gave a general basis and used a well known modern coach as an example. Y
You said
quote:
it’s as if he believes all of the sudden Steve Kerr discovered up tempo basketball like a caveman
Which is a lot different than the post I quoted initially (to which I'm responding).
quote:
because you’re at a major disadvantage when it comes to actual knowledge of the past as has been clearly illustrated in this thread.
I'll wait to have you explain the defensive strategy questions in my prior post before responding to this. I imagine you won't be able to and I reserve a huge lol gif for this place.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
Just said I didn’t quote you, you’re just repeating what I said and attempting to twist it. As far as pace goes in 1990, the top half of teams in terms of pace of play were all over 98.5. In 2023-24 the top half of the league were all above 98.2 so your assertion that high paced teams were an outlier compared to modern teams is objectively false. And as stated before the top team in 1990 was much higher than today’s top team. Your comment about defenses is ignorant, there’s been a slight change to illegal defense but zones and trapping were used in the 1990s and before. You didn’t know that because you don’t know anything about previous eras
This post was edited on 8/15/24 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
You really are that arrogantly ignorant aren’t you?
You still equate new and different with better. You do realize that most innovation in sports come out of necessity due to inferior talent that can’t succeed with the prevalent play style of the day right?
College football is the ultimate example of this, but to keep it about basketball, zone defense hasn’t improved defenses at all, it’s just made an entire generation of players significantly worse at man defense and inherently lazier on the court. These boys can’t play defense more than a few feet from the rim and have no low or high post defensive skills, just hang out near the rim and pray you can alter a shot enough to get an easy rebound. Even with zone defenses you still see guards regularly drive from half court directly to the rim with no resistance.
There is no variety in offensive skills today either. It’s all 3s or dunks/layups. How many guys can reliably hit a 10-14 foot jumper? And don’t give me that shite about “oh well for efficiency” yeah no that’s bullshite. You know what makes you a great player and great team? Being able to reliably score from everywhere on the court and being able to defend any part of the court.
You still equate new and different with better. You do realize that most innovation in sports come out of necessity due to inferior talent that can’t succeed with the prevalent play style of the day right?
College football is the ultimate example of this, but to keep it about basketball, zone defense hasn’t improved defenses at all, it’s just made an entire generation of players significantly worse at man defense and inherently lazier on the court. These boys can’t play defense more than a few feet from the rim and have no low or high post defensive skills, just hang out near the rim and pray you can alter a shot enough to get an easy rebound. Even with zone defenses you still see guards regularly drive from half court directly to the rim with no resistance.
There is no variety in offensive skills today either. It’s all 3s or dunks/layups. How many guys can reliably hit a 10-14 foot jumper? And don’t give me that shite about “oh well for efficiency” yeah no that’s bullshite. You know what makes you a great player and great team? Being able to reliably score from everywhere on the court and being able to defend any part of the court.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:38 pm to Madking
quote:
You didn’t know that because you don’t know anything about previous eras
What do you mean bro? He spent $14.99 a month for several years to read a few anecdotal Bill Simmons articles about the Boston Celtics from 1989 through 1993 so he totally knows everything about 80s/90s basketball bro. Just trust him bro.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:43 pm to Madking
quote:
Why would today's strategy not be better against a much more limited defense? How would the limitations imposed on the defense not make offense easier to exploit?
You do realize nothing in the rules today prevents teams from playing defensive styles like in the 90s, right? And the number of teams who employ this pure-man defense is 0, right?
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:48 pm to Dairy Sanders
quote:
You still equate new and different with better.
The math says it's better.
quote:
. You do realize that most innovation in sports come out of necessity due to inferior talent that can’t succeed with the prevalent play style of the day right?
No. This is quite the assumption, though
Are you now going to argue that Steph Curry is inferior talent? Steve Nash?
quote:
There is no variety in offensive skills today either. It’s all 3s or dunks/layups.
Again, math.
quote:
And don’t give me that shite about “oh well for efficiency” yeah no that’s bullshite.
See now you're arguing with math. You're no longer arguing with me.
quote:
You know what makes you a great player and great team? Being able to reliably score from everywhere on the court and being able to defend any part of the court.
This is called "common sense", and it's the argument of people who don't like data.
You're also engaging in lots of cherry picking. Would you say centers, on average, can score from more places reliably today or in the 80s? And you're ignoring things like passing, which are miles ahead today compared to the past. Also, if skills are deteriorating, then is the modern FT% so historically high (especially compared to the 90s)?
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:50 pm to SlowFlowPro
Euros are very good at repetitive tasks, such as foul shooting.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:50 pm to Dairy Sanders
quote:
He spent $14.99 a month for several years to read a few anecdotal Bill Simmons articles about the Boston Celtics from 1989 through 1993 so he totally knows everything about 80s/90s basketball bro. Just trust him bro.
What a strange melt
Especially considering I did none of those things.
My dad did buy me Simmons's Book of Basketball for Christmas one year, though.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 1:51 pm to FightinTigersDammit
quote:
Euros are very good at repetitive tasks, such as foul shooting.
This applies to American players, too.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 2:12 pm to Lsupimp
There used to be some really legitimate hate going on in the NBA.
Now they're all friends.
Now they're all friends.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 2:13 pm to SlowFlowPro
He's going to ignore you. Anytime you try to get into specifics with the King he avoids it. I don't 100% agree with you in this thread but you are certainly right about defense. And this is somebody that didn't miss a game in the 90s/early2000s and now watch maybe 1 game a week during the season. If you took todays offenses and used them in the 90s they would destroy. The thing you are overlooking though is that the rules almost forced teams to spread their defense out to todays standards but the offense could use a non shooter to do it. In today's game, you are going to need to put a shooter in to get that spacing. Either way defense in that era was inferior. As well as offense just from a pure X and O standpoint.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 2:15 pm to redfishfan
That’s not specifics, he’s just dodging and deflecting from the original discussion. Nobody said you can’t play the defenses played in the 90s, he’s making a straw man.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 2:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
So you’re saying that nobody plays “pure man to man”. What you’re doing is imposing your own definitions to skirt reality. Teams still play man to man D most of the time, nobody can know what your idea of “pure man” is.
Posted on 8/15/24 at 2:18 pm to Madking
quote:
he’s just dodging
Like you are these questions
quote:
Why would today's strategy not be better against a much more limited defense? How would the limitations imposed on the defense not make offense easier to exploit?
You do realize nothing in the rules today prevents teams from playing defensive styles like in the 90s, right? And the number of teams who employ this pure-man defense is 0, right?
Posted on 8/15/24 at 2:18 pm to redfishfan
This is a person who’s argued that double teams didn’t exist in the 90s and that those double teams were actually just rotations. That statement is 100% false.
This post was edited on 8/15/24 at 2:19 pm
Posted on 8/15/24 at 2:29 pm to Madking
Speaking of that era, imagine Len Bias with a 10 year career in Boston. People forget how Jordanesque or Dominiqueesque he was. That still bums me out.
FTR, I don’t watch a lot of NBA ball because I’m an NHL diehard, but almost everyone my age I know says the same thing. The current players are phenomenal but the league lacks old school rivalries and the style of play has evolved to be a sort of divisive- people either love it or love to hate it. I will defer to you guys on this.
FTR, I don’t watch a lot of NBA ball because I’m an NHL diehard, but almost everyone my age I know says the same thing. The current players are phenomenal but the league lacks old school rivalries and the style of play has evolved to be a sort of divisive- people either love it or love to hate it. I will defer to you guys on this.
This post was edited on 8/15/24 at 2:32 pm
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