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re: How long is Paul Skenes arm going to hold up?
Posted on 4/19/24 at 1:30 pm to Undertow
Posted on 4/19/24 at 1:30 pm to Undertow
quote:
Yep. Kids shouldn't touch any off-speed(excluding change-ups) until they are 13-14 IMO.
this is wrong btw. and you still twist your arm on a change up. Would you tell your son not to throw a spiral with a football? understand the biomechanics at work now?
the elbow valgus stress is greatest on a fastball.
oh and flat ground elbow valgus stress is same as mound
and towel drill puts ~81% of the elbow valgus stress that a pitch does
the heavier the ball the less elbow valgus stress too btw
quote:
Also, they don't need to play year round and quit specializing. Take breaks, play different sports, work different muscle groups. That is a big part in all of these injuries, also.
this we can agree with but kids also dont need to play so many sports they have no off season. kids also should be lifting way earlier and imo if you cant do 3 or 4 full range chest to bar chins, shouldnt be throwing a ball.
quote:
Agreed on all points. I also think MLB teams babying pitchers with pitch counts hurts them. It makes sense in the spring when you’re trying to ramp them up, but after that they need to be throwing a lot. It’s the constant rest/stress cycles that frick with their arms.
need more rest in season and much longer on ramp to start the season. there is a reason most injuries happen in the first month of the season,,,,,shitastic on ramps
baseball has an IQ problem and people living in the past who dont understand science. they think any real long toss is problematic. hell they hated baur for it. half think weighted balls are the problem yet will tell their pitchers to do 100s of towel drills and throw a football as if there is something special about a football and its weight compared to a plyo ball.
1
Posted on 4/19/24 at 1:31 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Spencer Strider is baseball-centric “lift guy”.
He can split squat 500lbs & is a freak in the weight room. He had TJ at Clemson & just tore it again a few weeks ago.
Most American both pitchers & especially those that go to college have no issue with the drawn out strength & movement parameters that are said to keep you injury free.
whats his innning history in HS and at clemson? 100 innings a year before age 20 is huge TJ risk indicator
and he is a 1 off. not everyone that meets requirements are going to be injury free. but they are indicators for sure.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 1:49 pm to lsu777
quote:
they are not nearly as advanced you beleive. heenan and cressy have talked abotu this, as has kyle at DL and brewster at thread.
Yes, most of them are advanced. Especially many of the top tier pitchers that are injured right now. Their regimens are very public. Their studies into biomechanics as well.
I respect the data but I do not believe these studies can even attempt to calibrate with the sudden spike in velocity that has happened in baseball. This is something they can explain 20yrs from now, but certainly not right now & certainly not as simple as professional pitchers not being strong enough to throw this fast.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 1:52 pm to lsu777
quote:
whats his innning history in HS and at clemson? 100 innings a year before age 20 is huge TJ risk indicator
Idk dude, is it wear & tear or is it body weight to height ratio?
This is kinda my point. Being strong may protect you to some degree but in the end this is happening to everyone.
If there was a better line of Paul Skenes having TJS in the next 10 years, you wouldn’t be able to make any money on it. Prob like 1:8 -800. It’s only a matter of when, given the current trend.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 1:53 pm to Lester Earl
ok well LE said so...must be true. ignore all the data from all the primary places the pitchers train right?
oh and overall injuries are not up. just elbow issues are. the shoulder injuries that were prevalent when we were young are pretty much gone from the game. you cant eliminate all injuries, its a trade off.
oh and overall injuries are not up. just elbow issues are. the shoulder injuries that were prevalent when we were young are pretty much gone from the game. you cant eliminate all injuries, its a trade off.
This post was edited on 4/19/24 at 1:54 pm
Posted on 4/19/24 at 2:06 pm to Lsuhoohoo
I've seen a good amount of baseball, and I have to be honest. I've never seen someone throw that hard with what looks like not much effort. Saw, Clemens, Ryan, Gooden, etc.. Skenes just make it look very effortless.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 2:10 pm to lsu777
quote:
ignore all the data from all the primary places the pitchers train right?
It’s still mostly theory & they word it as such. I am very certain it helps but in the context in which I say “body type doesn’t matter”, there is no one immune to this injury. Many like Skenes have succumbed to it and many after will.
You are pretending these are 15yr olds that have no core strength & cannot control their body weight. These are physical freaks just as Paul Skenes. Many of them subscribe to the methods & teachers you are speaking of. They still. Get. Hurt.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 2:12 pm to jojothetireguy
The Pirates are doing a smart thing during his minor league year by really limiting his innings. 12 through 4 games so far. By the end of the year I'm sure they'll let him lengthen his outings.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 2:16 pm to Lsuhoohoo
He’s a tank. He’ll be ok. He has the same odds of getting injured as any other pitcher.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 2:26 pm to Lester Earl
Many factors contributing to the arm injury epidemic but you can't deny the emphasis on high velo and high spin rate the past 12 years or so has greatly contributed to this. It has now filtered down to the sub High school levels because this is what scouts look for. This is what produces your national recruiting rankings.
Ita not the only factor by far but the number of UCL injuries has sky rocketed. At lower levels I do believe many kids are chasing velo before their body gains enough strength to handle the load.
You also see kids at 11yo throwing a ton of breaking balls. I see it every weekend.
Ita not the only factor by far but the number of UCL injuries has sky rocketed. At lower levels I do believe many kids are chasing velo before their body gains enough strength to handle the load.
You also see kids at 11yo throwing a ton of breaking balls. I see it every weekend.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 2:28 pm to Tiger Ryno
Kyle boddy: here’s how Spencer strider dominates & tears his UCL a 2nd time under Driveline’s watch lol
Posted on 4/19/24 at 2:31 pm to lsu777
quote:
this is wrong btw. and you still twist your arm on a change up. Would you tell your son not to throw a spiral with a football? understand the biomechanics at work now?
We're going to agree on disagree on this.
quote:
kids also dont need to play so many sports they have no off season. kids also should be lifting way earlier and imo if you cant do 3 or 4 full range chest to bar chins, shouldnt be throwing a ball.
I can agree with this.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 2:54 pm to SelaTiger
quote:
He has the same odds of getting injured as any other pitcher.
Which are extremely high
Posted on 4/19/24 at 3:02 pm to Undertow
quote:
I also think MLB teams babying pitchers with pitch counts hurts them. It makes sense in the spring when you’re trying to ramp them up, but after that they need to be throwing a lot. It’s the constant rest/stress cycles that frick with their arms.
Leo Mazzone, the Braves pitching coach in the 90's(he should be in Cooperstown IMO but I digress), made his career off of that philosophy.
And it worked. You hardly ever saw any arm injuries w/the Braves staff, save Smoltz.
This post was edited on 4/19/24 at 3:03 pm
Posted on 4/19/24 at 3:13 pm to Jones
quote:
Why?
Because there is at least one guy that runs around the board arguing that Nolan Ryan threw like 109 and sat 99-100.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 3:52 pm to JJ27
quote:
Have you watched Skenes? I know you’re not an LSU fan, so genuinely asking. Because he throws effortlessly. He doesn’t throw max effort at all.
He may LOOK effortless but that's not the case. If it was effortless than he could put in effort and throw 110 or more.
Which he doesn't.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 4:43 pm to tucoco
quote:
But I was constantly throwing a ball whether it was baseball or football as a QB, I was always throwing and not just throwing, but throwing hard. I didn't want to be rocked out the park by the opposing teams I faced, so I threw my fastballs really hard.
Yeah, me too.
I’ll never understand why I didn’t get to play in games….rigged..
Posted on 4/19/24 at 7:02 pm to Lsuhoohoo
LOL at the LSU fans in denial about him needing TJ eventually. It’s a matter of IF not WHEN. He’s not superhuman ya idiots.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 7:03 pm to JJ27
quote:
Have you watched Skenes? I know you’re not an LSU fan, so genuinely asking. Because he throws effortlessly. He doesn’t throw max effort at all.
So did Spencer Strider. All of his power is generated from his lower half, yet it didn't matter.
Posted on 4/19/24 at 7:05 pm to Pedro
quote:
Skenes is literally built different. Dudes a tank. With his frame it doesnt seem like he should have to torque his arm as much to get the ball to that speed as someone smaller than him.
How he is built has little to nothing to do with popping that ligament. To get the ball to 100mph he needs the tip of his finger to reach 100mph. Meaning his elbow and that ligament have the same torque applied as any other pitcher throwing 100.
Think of the elbow and forearm like a cattle whip and the rest of the pitchers body like the person using the whip. A strong person can get the tip of the whip to the same speed as a weak person with less effort, but if the speed is the same, then the torque applied to the whip is the same.
A tall/strong pitcher can probably throw more innings than a weaker pitcher by using less effort to get the same speed, but the torque on the ligament is the same.
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