re: Carnivore Diet

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Now, I eat essentially ONLY what I grow (which is a fair amount), a little from the farmers' market, and the fruit we pick in season. Basically, I'm eating only what I truly want in terms of plants.

Once we get to late October, I'll practically be Carnivore again waiting for the next season to roll around. Feels pretty ancestral; eating with the seasons.

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Ya, this is where I think I'll end up. No way in hell I'm going to give up the hot garlic dill pickles I make from my garden.

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hot garlic dill pickles I make from my garden

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Please send. TIA

I use my stock pot mostly, but any deep pot will work

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I have the same concerns as the other poster asking about plastic.

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then honestly, you probably shouldn't use the technique

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What are some good workarounds, if any?

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you could use glass jars, but that would be difficult with meats and the times and temps are going to be vastly different than any of the sous vide tools recommend that you could buy

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starting this today.

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Still enjoying it?

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Junky

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You absolutely do not need any plant matter at all - do not let anyone state otherwise.

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How would you respond to the claim that any fad diet that excludes processed foods high in sugar is a potentially healthy diet?

Sage Canaday - one of the premier marathon and ultra marathon runners in the world - is exclusively vegan and has been since childhood.

My FIL just turned 70 and has a clean bill of health, never had a major illness or injury, and still lifts weights and runs a few miles every day. He's had the same diet for decades: a large bowl of oatmeal cooked in whole milk and loaded with whole fat yogurt, fruit, and nuts for breakfast and a meat and 3 for dinner.

I'm highly skeptical of these new diets that have the support of a select few scientific studies while ignoring all others. The human body is very adaptable, and our digestive system is way more remarkable than we give it credit for. Further, there are essential vitamins and nutrients that the body needs. The increase in life longevity seen over the past few centuries is often attributed to a wider variety in diet along with the employment of GMOs in areas of the world that lack access to foods that provide the essentials for survival and longevity.

If someone has access to meat sources that can provide the body's essential nutrient needs without raising the risk of developing cancer, then that's great. However, this is something extremely difficult to do, and most likely won't be achieved by eating only steak and chicken from the grocery store.

An often cited success story in the carnivore diet is the Inuit diet who thrived without any fruits or vegetables. However, there is now evidence that the Inuit had genetic mutations that allowed for them to survive on such a high-protein, high-fat diet without the addition of fruits or vegetables. Further, the Inuit consumed high amounts of whale and seal, which would have provided unique sources for those essential vitamins and nutrients. Even still, the Inuit have been found to have higher rates of stroke , and the claims that their heart health is superior to omnivorous people is faulty. Not to mention, the Inuit were actually able to consume carbohydrates from their meat sources by consuming much of it in raw form and not cooking it over fire, sous vide, roasting, etc.

As mentioned numerous times in the thread, there aren't any current studies that track long term effects of a Western carnivore diet. There are - IMO - substantial correlations between eating an overt amount of meat and the development of cancer and heart disease with the extra risk of nutrient deficiency. Perhaps the diet will work for you all long term, but considering the fact that cultures throughout history have thrived with health, athletics, and longetivity on a varied diet with both meat and vegetables, I don't see the need to make such claims that people don't need plants at all.

I am so glad to find you here questioning everything stated in this wonderful thread.

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How would you respond to the claim that any fad diet that excludes processed foods high in sugar is a potentially healthy diet?

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I do no claim anything about any fad diet and would agree that processed foods are a huge problem. Do not pretense that a human carnivore is some sort of fad, because it is the default for a human diet. Carnivore is the extreme basis of an elimination diet.

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Sage Canaday - one of the premier marathon and ultra marathon runners in the world - is exclusively vegan and has been since childhood.

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I could not care any less about vegan anything because this is a thread about carnivory.

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My FIL...

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...Good for him.

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I'm highly skeptical of these new diets that have the support of a select few scientific studies while ignoring all others.

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Funny, let us get to this with the WHO and how ridiculous of a statement it was that meat is a carcinogen. It isn’t even scientific – more political – in its posturing. No study they cited found direct evidence of their claims. Of the six remaining experimental studies remaining, three of them were based on rats, not humans, that were also injected with carcinogenic chemicals to begin with. The three remaining human trials used poor biomarkers and failed to include proper controls.

The WHO read up on 800+ epidemiological human studies – of these, only 29 were used. 14 of which, suggested that red meat was associated, 15 did not. Red meat has never been found to have a relative risk of greater than 1.6, when anything under 2 clinically insignificant as to not be used as evidence.
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As for the Inuit, if one looks to compare the more primitive Inuit cultures to more western ones, we find that the primitive cultures suffer less from the diseases of western man – and the ones that suffer from disease are not related to diet at all and are more due to the primitive lifestyle/sanitation. Here is a post I made a while back on Reddit

It is very interesting that humans have a very acidic stomach at about 1.5pH

-It is interesting to note that humans, uniquely among the primates so far considered, appear to have stomach pH values more akin to those of carrion feeders than to those of most carnivores and omnivores...the extremely low pH seen in modern humans (pH = 1.5)

It is also interesting that isotopic evidence finds ancient human diets to be that of an “apex-predator” of even greater than a wolf. Humans were the preverbal bad asses of the pre-historic times. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

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I don't see the need to make such claims that people don't need plants at all.

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It isn’t about making claims – It is about spreading information. About breaking dogma and letting people know what is out there. It is completely safe. If someone wants to use an all-meat diet to lose weight or get healthy – why in the heck should you care?

I started this last week. Failed today with Mexican food. Will be back on it tomorrow. I have psoriatic arthritis, and want to see what happens. I have been on keto for two years, so the transition hasn't been bad.

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Do not pretense that a human carnivore is some sort of fad, because it is the default for a human diet. Carnivore is the extreme basis of an elimination diet.

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Do you have a link for this claim?

I seem to be only finding sources that claim the opposite..

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I could not care any less about vegan anything because this is a thread about carnivory.

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You should care because the anecdote belies some of the claims of the thread and often claims by the Keto crowd. High meat, low plant diets are not the sole, natural, default diet of human beings. We're highly adaptable. You can eat fruit and vegetables and plants. Some even do well eating refined sugars in moderation. Once we can establish that there are alternatives and not a need for the carnivore diet, then we can question if it's even an advisable path to take with one's health.

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the WHO and how ridiculous of a statement it was that meat is a carcinogen

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For one, there's nothing inherently wrong with an epidemiological study or being selective in which ones are considered. It seems you're suggesting the WHO has an agenda in vilifying meat as a food source. I'm not going to get into a conspiracy discussion, but I will put forth this study from 2017 which synthesizes findings from numerous studies - both epidemiological and clinical - on the connection between red meat consumption and cancer. It concludes that cooking red meat at high temperatures does increase carcinogens and should be considered a potential cause of colorectal cancer.

I do want to take a moment to say that I never made the claim that eating meat will cause cancer. Even the linked study - as scientific studies often do - hedges its claim in its discussion section. However, the problem I have is encouraging people to feel completely safe with an all meat diet when science makes no such claims. If anything, there is skepticism that eating too much meat especially when cooked at high temperatures may cause cancer. When combined with the fact that primitive cultures from the past who relied on carnivorous diets typically ate their meats raw or lightly cooked, it becomes apparent that such positivistic claims with the diet are not supported.

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It is also interesting that isotopic evidence finds ancient human diets to be that of an “apex-predator” of even greater than a wolf. Humans were the preverbal bad asses of the pre-historic times.

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Well two responses. First, I'm not seeing each of your sources supporting this claim

In source #1, they're performing a study on the different protein intakes between neanderthals and early modern humans. Neanderthals are found to be mostly meat eaters but no claims are made about early modern humans besides the fact that humans were getting protein from marine animals.

From the study:

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As the method only measures protein intake, many low-protein foods that may have been important to the diet (i.e., high caloric foods like honey, underground storage organs, and essential mineral and vitamin rich plant foods) are simply invisible to this method.

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Sources #3 and #4 are performing similar studies.

Second, even if humans were relying mostly on animal proteins for their entire diet, I'm not seeing any claims connecting the diet to optimal health. Most of your sources merely expand Paleolithic era humans' diet from terrestrial proteins to marine and freshwater proteins.

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It isn’t about making claims – It is about spreading information. About breaking dogma and letting people know what is out there. It is completely safe. If someone wants to use an all-meat diet to lose weight or get healthy – why in the heck should you care?

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Because the claim that it's "completely safe" must rely entirely on the following:

1) There needs to be a genetic disposition to eating a purely meat diet (see the earlier linked study on the Inuit).

2) Protein sources should include marine and freshwater animals (your sources and the Inuit sources).

3) Red meat should most likely be cooked at low temperatures (study on red meat linked in this comment) and marine animals such as whale and seal should be consumed raw (Inuit diet study).

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why in the heck should you care?

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Well, for one, this is the health/fitness board where we discuss things about health. I do not see this diet as healthy. I even worry it's dangerous and would hate for those looking to lose weight and/or seek optimal health be lead astray by a fad diet that may have significant health risks.

Further, this whole "paleo" movement of finding our natural diet seems to be more so interested in atavistic ideals that are assumed to be better for us out of basic instinct rather than reason and science. Just because cavemen were launching spears at bison and fish doesn't mean we are meant to copy their ways.

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What I am criticizing is the basic premise of this thread and the claim by Junky that humans naturally should eat a carnivore's diet and that no one today needs plants in their diet.

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I don't know about "should" - but his position is certainly a defensible one.

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1) It assumes Western, modern meat choices provide enough of the essential nutrients to sustain a person's long term health.

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Yes, that's true. I believe that it probably does - especially if any thought/effort is put into it at all.

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2) It ignores the fact that the majority of people groups over time has increased life span, health, and performance through a diversified diet.

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I don't agree on the health part. America now is more diseased than it's ever been - and obesity is rampant.

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3) It relies on faulty scientific claims that are not vetted by the scientific community - at least not enough to suggest that those eating like a carnivore is the default diet for optimal health.

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I'm sorry, but approximately ZERO of the "evidence submitted by the scientific community" over the past 40 years as pertaining to diet has been accurate and/or healthy.

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our cardiovascular and obesity epidemic is a small blip.

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Yes!

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Just because the world is currently getting fat and dumb on high-sugar, low-fat diets doesn't mean we should eschew the part of our diet that makes us omnivores.

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My opinion is eat whatever vegetables you like...just don't feel pressured to do so. Ancient humans just did not eat brussel sprouts.