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Fine Wine Frauds
Posted on 7/8/19 at 8:20 pm
Posted on 7/8/19 at 8:20 pm
I am watching American Greed and the story is about this wine dealer that defrauded a bunch of "collectors" over several years.
Wine has always been a mystery to me. I can't tell one from the other and certainly can't recommend a wine when asked. The prices mean nothing to me. I cringe if I have to pay $8 a glass in a restaurant.
So these guys on this show prepay for wine of certain vintages and pay the guy to store it in "perfect" conditions yet they can't really tell if they have the "real" wine or not or if the wine is real is it theirs or somebody else's
They are buying hundreds of cases they sometimes never take delivery on. It is a big ole fraud.
The entire wine collecting hobby seems very risky to me.
Do you guys collect wine? Are you ever disappointed in an expensive bottle? What is the most you have ever paid for a bottle?
Wine has always been a mystery to me. I can't tell one from the other and certainly can't recommend a wine when asked. The prices mean nothing to me. I cringe if I have to pay $8 a glass in a restaurant.
So these guys on this show prepay for wine of certain vintages and pay the guy to store it in "perfect" conditions yet they can't really tell if they have the "real" wine or not or if the wine is real is it theirs or somebody else's
They are buying hundreds of cases they sometimes never take delivery on. It is a big ole fraud.
The entire wine collecting hobby seems very risky to me.
Do you guys collect wine? Are you ever disappointed in an expensive bottle? What is the most you have ever paid for a bottle?
5
Posted on 7/8/19 at 9:00 pm to I B Freeman
thing with old wine is it gets better with age right up to the point it turns into vinegar 
a $2000 bottle of wine you empty out and refill with mogan david will fool 98% of the so called wine experts out there
a $2000 bottle of wine you empty out and refill with mogan david will fool 98% of the so called wine experts out there
Posted on 7/8/19 at 9:41 pm to I B Freeman
I think this infographic breaks it down pretty good.
Posted on 7/8/19 at 9:46 pm to keakar
quote:
a $2000 bottle of wine you empty out and refill with mogan david will fool 98% of the so called wine experts out there
Well that's false as shite.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 5:43 am to TH03
I my experience, shite is pretty real.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 8:52 am to keakar
quote:
a $2000 bottle of wine you empty out and refill with mogan david will fool 98% of the so called wine experts out there
That’s nonsense.
Now, fraud is nonetheless problematic because the buyer generally doesn’t have the knowledge required to tell the difference between fraud and a legit bottle that was improperly stored and “went bad”.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 9:02 am to keakar
I'm no wine expert by any means but I can taste the difference between the cheapest $5 bottle of wine at the store and a half decent $12-15 bottle, particularly reds. I can't really tell the difference between a $15 bottle and a $50 one.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 9:28 am to I B Freeman
There is a netflix documentary about Rudy Kurniawan called Sour Grapes that goes into great detail about this. If I had to imagine, the American Greed episode was based off him too.
He basically had such a good palate he would take old wines and re-create the taste then turn around and sell it as an authentic bottle. They found hundreds of empty bottles, peeled off labels, basically recipes on how to mix certain wines to recreate an icon vintage, etc. when he was arrested.
He basically had such a good palate he would take old wines and re-create the taste then turn around and sell it as an authentic bottle. They found hundreds of empty bottles, peeled off labels, basically recipes on how to mix certain wines to recreate an icon vintage, etc. when he was arrested.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 9:37 am to rowbear1922
I was Gonna suggest Sour Grapes.
The people collecting these bottles are rarely experts.
They’re usually just stupid rich and in a best case scenario have ann expert buying for them.
The people collecting these bottles are rarely experts.
They’re usually just stupid rich and in a best case scenario have ann expert buying for them.
This post was edited on 7/9/19 at 9:39 am
Posted on 7/9/19 at 9:43 am to SammyTiger
quote:
The people collecting these bottles are rarely experts.
They’re usually just stupid rich and in a best case scenario have ann expert buying for them.
For sure, they want wine that no one else can get only to show off to others. They know very limited about wine and only learn from what the buyer tells them. It's like owning a Ferrari, it's not about getting from A to B any faster but more about the status symbol it represents.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 10:08 am to sml71
You can not replace even a $20 bottle with mogan david and fool anyone who knows what they're talking about.
Now, you can certainly fool people into thinking a $30 is really a $100+ or so, but no one is going to think a low quality kosher Concord grape wine is anything other than what it is. It's very distinctly flavored.
Now, you can certainly fool people into thinking a $30 is really a $100+ or so, but no one is going to think a low quality kosher Concord grape wine is anything other than what it is. It's very distinctly flavored.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 10:23 am to keakar
quote:
$2000 bottle of wine you empty out and refill with mogan david will fool 98% of the so called wine experts out there
Absolutely false.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 10:37 am to BigDropper
That infographic has some truth, but outside of champagne, I'd be shocked if $100+ bottles were spending huge on marketing.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 10:40 am to Pettifogger
High quality producers are not marketing like the low quality ones are.
The mass produced consumer wines like barefoot, yellowtail, Sutter home, Woodbridge, et al are spending millions and millions on marketing. More than anyone else. No high quality producer $100+ is spending that kind of money on marketing.
The mass produced consumer wines like barefoot, yellowtail, Sutter home, Woodbridge, et al are spending millions and millions on marketing. More than anyone else. No high quality producer $100+ is spending that kind of money on marketing.
This post was edited on 7/9/19 at 10:41 am
Posted on 7/9/19 at 10:44 am to fallguy_1978
quote:
I'm no wine expert by any means but I can taste the difference between the cheapest $5 bottle of wine at the store and a half decent $12-15 bottle, particularly reds. I can't really tell the difference between a $15 bottle and a $50 one.
I think this is the case for most people
Once you get beyond the bottom of the barrel stuff very few people can reliably tell much difference in a blind test. People just like to pretend they can so they can sound sophisticated (or justify their profession in some cases) And I have no doubt some of them actually believe it.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 10:49 am to TH03
I don't know if there are other marketing methods that target the industry more than the general public, but I can't even think of producers in the 25-50 dollar range that market really heavily to the general public.
For example, Paul Hobbs is featured at tons of wine shops here and appears on a lot of wine lists, and Belle Glos is pushed by every online retailer it seems. But is that marketing?
For example, Paul Hobbs is featured at tons of wine shops here and appears on a lot of wine lists, and Belle Glos is pushed by every online retailer it seems. But is that marketing?
Posted on 7/9/19 at 11:43 am to Pettifogger
quote:
For example, Paul Hobbs is featured at tons of wine shops here and appears on a lot of wine lists, and Belle Glos is pushed by every online retailer it seems. But is that marketing?
A lot I would say is more target marketing.
When I worked in restaurants, there were always company-wide quarterly competitions to sell the feature wine. Some of the prizes were pretty damn good too. We would taste it in pre-shift 2-3 times a week and go over the highlights of the wine, but more times than not, we talked about the story behind the wine. Even when I was a Somm, it was a hell of a lot easier to sell a table on a story than the taste.
This post was edited on 7/9/19 at 11:46 am
Posted on 7/9/19 at 11:47 am to Pettifogger
There's incentive money and perks for wine list placements and stuff like that. Just like for wine set/displays on the retail side. Creating POS and branded swag is big, but usually the low quality, mass production stuff.
The high quality, expensive producers will sometimes offer incentives for placements. But a lot of the times, these wines aren't open for anyone to order so they really aren't trying to market themselves to the masses. The fine wine world is extremely targeted and specific. These are your shops where the buyers are highly educated, often times very highly certified and know what they're talking about. They will most likely know the wines from following winery releases, studying wines like crazy, leaning on our specialists, etc.
The high quality, expensive producers will sometimes offer incentives for placements. But a lot of the times, these wines aren't open for anyone to order so they really aren't trying to market themselves to the masses. The fine wine world is extremely targeted and specific. These are your shops where the buyers are highly educated, often times very highly certified and know what they're talking about. They will most likely know the wines from following winery releases, studying wines like crazy, leaning on our specialists, etc.
Posted on 7/9/19 at 11:50 am to rowbear1922
quote:
Even when I was a Somm, it was a hell of a lot easier to sell a table on a story than the taste.
The average consumer will pretend they know what good wine tastes like, but most bottles $10-50ish need a story or an attitude or a glamour lifestyle or a pretty label to sell, especially on the domestic side.
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