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Started By
Message
re: United Methodist Church special session this week
Posted on 2/20/19 at 11:32 pm to Quidam65
Posted on 2/20/19 at 11:32 pm to Quidam65
quote:As a Calvinist, I have to say that's a bit of a misrepresentation. God blames the damned for Adam's choice (original sin), as well as their own. There is no one who goes to Hell that deserved to go to Heaven, which is really the point of the book of Romans: all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore it's by God's grace alone that any are saved.
They were teaching Reformed Theology a/k/a Calvinism. Which, as I said, I consider heresy (since it essentially IMHO turns God into a sadistic bully, picking some to be saved and others to be damned, but blaming the damned for His choice).
This boils down to the concept of Biblical federalism, whereby we are judged according to whoever represents us. We are either represented by Adam and the covenant of works or by Christ and the covenant of grace. That's what Calvinism teaches, or rather, the Bible teaches. If it's unfair to be judged guilty in Adam by his disobedience, then it's unfair to be judged righteous in Christ by His obedience, but that's the Gospel: that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone, and not by our own works of the law that save no man.
Calvinists seems to be few and far between these days so if you are curious to know what one of us really believes, I'm more than happy to discuss it with civility and charity.
1
Posted on 2/21/19 at 6:01 am to oldtimefootball
quote:The schedule says that "A detailed schedule" will be announced Saturday morning when they convene. It runs through Tuesday with an adjournment at 6:30 PM. So, I would suspect that the vote will come Tuesday morning. There is live stream video of the whole thing but I would imagine that past Saturday - Day of Prayer - that is there will be a lot of lobbying for "the perfect plan" held in the minds of certain individuals.
When is this vote taking place? This week?
Our Church normally has a Wednesday night service following a meal. Next Wednesday, our Senior Pastor is going to talk and try to explain what all just took place. Some follow it more closely than others so that is needed, I would think.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 6:36 am to Diamondawg
Find a Lutheran, Wisconsin Synod church.
They still believe that the Bible is the Truth.
They still believe that the Bible is the Truth.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 6:44 am to TigerBait1971
Where do y'all follow this information?
Posted on 2/21/19 at 10:36 am to HailToTheChiz
quote:Are you asking tigerbait about the Lutheran church or how to follow the happenings re: this Special General Conference?
Where do y'all follow this information?
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:12 am to Champagne
quote:
I'm not well-versed in this area of theology, but, if I remember my college courses well enough, this sounds like a throwback view from the old days of Calvin -- basic Pre-destination. Am I wrong about that?
Reformed is a synonym for Calvinism. Basically, God picked at the outset of time who would be in and who would be out. Never mind it doesn't square with John 3:16.
(Of course, the mystery for me is why would God create someone who would reject Him in the first place. But I'm not God, that's His call not mine.)
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:15 am to Quidam65
quote:
God picked at the outset of time who would be in and who would be out.
I always sort of thought that God didn't pick who would chose Him, but He can look through all of time and therefore already knows what choice everyone will make. If that makes sense.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:21 am to FooManChoo
quote:
There is no one who goes to Hell that deserved to go to Heaven, which is really the point of the book of Romans: all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I agree completely, and God had no obligation to give mankind an out when Adam sinned (He didn't with Lucifer and the demons). His Grace is His Gift to us who accept it. We cannot earn our salvation no matter how hard we try.
The problem is many verses teach the opposite of what Calvin taught, especially in the areas of Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. For example, "Quench not the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19). But if it's already been decided who's in and who's out, this verse is meaningless, since whoever is in can't quench the Spirit (irresistible grace) and whoever is out won't be drawn by the Spirit in the first place (limited atonement).
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:22 am to HailToTheChiz
quote:
Where do y'all follow this information?
You can livestream at www.umc.org on 23-26.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:23 am to Quidam65
People don’t like the thought of Calvinism because they like the thought of choice. If your salvation ultimately depends on your unprompted choice, then Christ’s sacrifice was not enough.
Also, if you believe God knows all, then he can’t learn. He therefore could not learn of your choice to follow him. He already knew. Therefore, the choice necessarily has to be preordained.
Also, if you believe God knows all, then he can’t learn. He therefore could not learn of your choice to follow him. He already knew. Therefore, the choice necessarily has to be preordained.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:24 am to SSpaniel
quote:
I always sort of thought that God didn't pick who would chose Him, but He can look through all of time and therefore already knows what choice everyone will make. If that makes sense.
Again the mystery is why create someone who would reject Him? That is beyond my understanding (Isaiah 55:9 talking about His thoughts and ways being higher than ours).
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:30 am to Eli Goldfinger
Calvinism or predestination is a false doctrine. Christ tasted death for every man.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:31 am to DeltaDoc
quote:
Also, if you believe God knows all, then he can’t learn. He therefore could not learn of your choice to follow him. He already knew. Therefore, the choice necessarily has to be preordained.
That's conflating foreknowledge (knowing who would accept and who would reject) with predestination. That's what Calvin does in his teachings (especially in the areas of Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace). Whereas traditional theology teaches that though God does know who will accept and who will reject His Gift, he does not force anyone to do so, so if they reject they are condemned by their own actions.
In fact, if God has already decided who's in and who's out, then according to 2 Peter 3:9 (not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance), then the logical conclusion is that He will save everyone. But we know universal salvation isn't true since when the Book of Life is opened, Revelation 20:15 says that whosoever isn't found in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire (Hell).
Nor is its variant, post-mortem salvation, an option either. Hebrews 9:27 teaches that we are appointed once to die, and after that the judgment. Nothing about a do-over there.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:33 am to DeltaDoc
quote:
People don’t like the thought of Calvinism because they like the thought of choice. If your salvation ultimately depends on your unprompted choice, then Christ’s sacrifice was not enough.
Then why bother to preach the Gospel if the decision is already made? I know that's the variant of hyper-Calvinism, but ultimately isn't it really "honest Calvinism"?
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:34 am to Eli Goldfinger
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:36 am to Quidam65
quote:
That's conflating foreknowledge (knowing who would accept and who would reject) with predestination. That's what Calvin does in his teachings (especially in the areas of Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace). Whereas traditional theology teaches that though God does know who will accept and who will reject His Gift, he does not force anyone to do so, so if they reject they are condemned by their own actions.
That is an irrelevant distinction for a god who is alleged to be omnipotent.
At the very least it would make him an a-hole. I'd argue, and win, that he's the most sadistic being imaginable.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:59 am to Quidam65
quote:
Reformed is a synonym for Calvinism. Basically, God picked at the outset of time who would be in and who would be out. Never mind it doesn't square with John 3:16. (Of course, the mystery for me is why would God create someone who would reject Him in the first place. But I'm not God, that's His call not mine.)
Based on my limited theological expertise, I'll say that these theological differences, while distinct, don't seem extreme or irreconcilable to me.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 12:28 pm to NikolaiJakov
quote:
If the SBC ever goes this route, we'll ignore it or withdraw.
"Yeah, we ain't scared of a building fund, baws."
Posted on 2/21/19 at 12:33 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
"Yeah, we ain't scared of a building fund, baws."
As a lifelong Southern Baptist, I can honestly tell you that we've never seen a building fund or love offering that we didn't like.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 12:46 pm to Eli Goldfinger
Am i wrong, after reading the one church plan (ocp) and blogs from bishops, that....after all the deliberation and meetings and panels that the end result will be ..."do what you want...we dont care. Lets just focus on what we have in common...not the stuff we cant agree on....Kumbaya on 3"
The OCP is a joke. It's my grandmother not ever wanting to take a side just in case she offended someone.
The OCP is a joke. It's my grandmother not ever wanting to take a side just in case she offended someone.
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