re: United Methodist Church special session this week

Flippancy is not virtuous, brother.

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Calvinism, to me, completely denies the fairness and righteousness of God. Why would God allow a person to be born that He was going to cast into hell without giving that person a chance to choose between God (Christ) and Satan? The bible says "God is love" and a God of love is not going to do that. If Calvinism is to be believed, there is no reason to preach the gospel because the "predestined" will be brought into the fold regardless. There is a lot more support in the bible for free will, salvation by grace than for predestination.

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I suppose something like that has been my question about "the elect". You are or you aren't. Live like a heathen because you are in or you're out. Nothing you can do about it. I add this only to counter the "Down with John Wesley" comment. j/k

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deep disagreements about same-sex marriage and the ordination of LGBTQ clergy.

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Their disagreement is with what the Bible actually says. Any church that denies the Bible's condemnation of the practice of homosexuality is no church at all.

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Calvinism, to me, completely denies the fairness and righteousness of God.

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That assumes God owes us something good (like a chance at salvation), which He doesn't.

What we are owed is the wages of our sin, which is (spiritual) death. We are owed damnation. It's, therefore, "unfair" for God to save anyone from that fate, but thankfully God shows mercy to us instead of giving us what we are owed.

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Why would God allow a person to be born that He was going to cast into hell without giving that person a chance to choose between God (Christ) and Satan?

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Paul in Romans chapter 9 says it better than I could, but to summarize: to display His might and glory by showing His love and mercy towards those who don't deserve it (His elect).

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -Romans 9:14-23

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The bible says "God is love" and a God of love is not going to do that.

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Why not? God is more than love. He's a God of wrath and vengeance. He's a god of justice. What we are owed is God's wrath against our sin and He owes us nothing good, especially salvation. He shows His love by saving some who don't deserve it.

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If Calvinism is to be believed, there is no reason to preach the gospel because the "predestined" will be brought into the fold regardless.

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God is a God of means. The Gospel message is what God uses to bring His elect (the predestined) to a saving faith in Christ. We preach because we don't know who the elect are but we know that God will use the Gospel to accomplish salvation for His people.

On the flip side, we can have confidence in the power of God by knowing that it isn't up to us to try to convince someone to believe the Gospel. It's up to God to use our feeble and imperfect speech and communications to work in the hearts of the elect hearers by His Spirit. We can be bold and preach with confidence because we know that we can't screw it up; God will save His people by His power, not ours.

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There is a lot more support in the bible for free will, salvation by grace than for predestination.

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With all due respect, it's a mistake to believe that free will is the opposite of predestination. It's actually total depravity that is the opposite of a free will. Predestination is clearly taught in the Bible, as I said in a previous post. The difference in belief comes with how people are predestined: does God choose us based on what we do, or does He choose based on His own good pleasure?

With that said, I believe that it is far easier to accommodate the "free will" verses into a Calvinistic doctrinal system than it is to accommodate the "total depravity" verses into an Arminian doctrinal system.

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Calvinism, to me, completely denies the fairness and righteousness of God.

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God isn’t fair, but he is righteous.

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I suppose something like that has been my question about "the elect". You are or you aren't. Live like a heathen because you are in or you're out. Nothing you can do about it.

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Election doesn't exist in a theological vacuum. A regenerated elect person will also be sanctified (made holy) throughout their lives. Some more than others. It's what James was talking about in regards to a "dead" faith; a true and saving faith will produce good works, but a "dead" faith will be evidenced by the lack of good works. If you are "elect", you will produce good works. There are no elect persons that do not show at least some evidences of the fruits of the spirit throughout their lives.

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I add this only to counter the "Down with John Wesley" comment. j/k

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I hope you realize that I said that as a joke. I disagree with Wesley's theology but I believe he is in Heaven right now as a true believer in Christ.

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I knew you were kidding that is why I also ended with a j/k and tossed you a softball question re: "the elect".

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Ah, my apologies then for misunderstanding

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Flippancy is not virtuous, brother.

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I honestly don't know what you're referring to.

I’m a Calvinist.

I get it. It doesn’t seem fair that Christ died for a sinful person like me.

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This special conference is a reminder to all you Protestants out there to consider joining the Church founded by Christ.

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I was raised in the UMC, but I haven't been a member for quite some time. My allegiance is to God and His word.

I will be saddened if they vote to set aside the clear teachings of Scripture in favor of the spirit of the age. Even so, this is one Christian who, regardless of whatever problems Protestantism may exhibit, will NEVER "swim the Tiber."

Tim Challies puts it well:

"To the work of Christ [the RCC] adds the work of Mary. To the intercession of the Savior it adds the intercession of the saints. To the authority of the Bible it adds the authority of tradition. To the free gift of salvation it adds the necessity of human effort. In place of the finished work of Christ on the cross it demands the ongoing sacrifice of the mass. In place of the permanent imputation of Christ’s righteousness it substitutes the temporary infusion of works righteousness."

By reason of its clear, multifarious contradictions of Scripture, I do not recognize the RCC's authority or teachings as divinely instituted or inspired.

Swimming the Tiber isn't rational, nor is it a return to primitive Christianity. It's trading the Gospel for man-made doctrines that the early church would find both unrecognizable and worthy of anathematizing.

Thanks for the invitation, STLDawg, but this Protestant politely declines.