re: United Methodist Church special session this week

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This special conference is a reminder to all you Protestants out there to consider joining the Church founded by Christ. The Church that was the early Church. That is, the Catholic Church. If you read church history with an open mind, you’ll se that it’s the rational thing to do. I was Southern Baptist until I started wondering how the Church operated before the Bible was written and how the Bible was assembled. (Who wrote the table of contents?)

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I should switch from a church where clergy increasingly consists of humanists-in-disguise to one where that's been the case for decades?

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How do you reconcile this with the plain language in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8?

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In pari materia, I find them ambiguous and subject to various interpretations.

Ephesians 1 indicates we all die in sin and are redeemed by the sacrifice (implicitly if we die in a state of grace) - "Grace" by definition means accepting of the gift/sacrifice of Christ in a classic, Christian (at least Protestant) meaning.

On the other hand, Romans seems more strict in the salvation requirements, without being much more specific than we saw in Ephesians.

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I find them ambiguous and subject to various interpretations.

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Is that not impossible because we know that Scripture is absolutely clear? Perspicuity Doctrine.

Perspicuity

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In globo, scripture is absolutely clear.

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Really?

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Reformed is a synonym for Calvinism. Basically, God picked at the outset of time who would be in and who would be out. Never mind it doesn't square with John 3:16.

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I hear that a lot but I don't think there's an actual problem there. In fact, the preceding section of John 3 gives us the context: for one to believe, they must be "born again" by the Spirit. Since not everyone is born again, not everyone can believe.

When I've discussed 3:16 with others, they kept emphasizing the word "whosoever", as if that means anyone can believe. It's not actually saying that. It is saying that anyone and everyone who does believe will be saved and that no one who believes will be cast away, as is said in other passages, too.

As an example: if I said "whosoever dunks this basketball in that regulation-size basketball goal will receive this cookie", that doesn't mean anyone and everyone has the ability to dunk the basketball. It just means that everyone who does dunk the basketball will get the cookie. Likewise, whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life, but not everyone has the ability to do that.

So who does have the ability to believe? No one. There are dozens of verses that talk about how we are dead in our sins, blind to the truth, unable to believe, and natural enemies of God that hate things things of God. How, then, does an enemy of God seek Christ? He must be made alive, or as Christ said to Nicodemus, he must be born again by the Spirit. This is called "regeneration", whereby the heart of stone is removed and a heart of flesh is given. The eyes and ears are opened and the blind see and the deaf here. Or in other words, Christ's sheep are finally able to hear His voice and follow Him while those not of His flock do not.

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(Of course, the mystery for me is why would God create someone who would reject Him in the first place. But I'm not God, that's His call not mine.)

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This sort of question comes naturally for the "Calvinistic" reading of Romans. Paul is making an argument, starting in chapter 1, regarding the sinfulness of mankind and how guilty we are before God and that no one seeks God or turns to Him by faith naturally and that only God's chosen ("elect") will believe. The natural response is as you say: how can God fault someone whom God made to reject Him?

Here's how Paul actually words it:

"You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" -Romans 1:19-23

The answer is simple: God chose His people before the foundation of the world to show His love and mercy towards in a special way so that He would be praised and receive glory for His goodness. God ordained not to save others to also show His glory in His justice. We all--the elect and reprobate alike--deserve to die in our sins and receive God's wrath for not living up to His perfect moral standard. Everyone is guilty and no one deserves salvation, but God in His mercy ordained to save some people from what they deserve for His own glory.

That election, or predestination, gives God the glory because He is the one who saves us from our sins in every respect: He chose us to be saved before we were born; He sent His Son to die to pay for our sins; He regenerated us through His Spirit to make us willing and able to receive the Gospel by faith; and He keeps us in His hands from falling away from the faith so that we persevere until the end. God receives all the glory for our salvation because He is the one who saves us; we do not save ourselves. If our faith is a work, we deserve salvation for it, or as Paul puts it, we are owed a wage. But faith is God's free gift to us, so that salvation is a gift from God, not a wage earned by man.

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The problem is many verses teach the opposite of what Calvin taught, especially in the areas of Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. For example, "Quench not the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19). But if it's already been decided who's in and who's out, this verse is meaningless, since whoever is in can't quench the Spirit (irresistible grace) and whoever is out won't be drawn by the Spirit in the first place (limited atonement).

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Quenching the spirit simply means that we, as regenerate believers, quench the fire of the Spirit by removing the fuel of fellowship, worship, prayer, etc. that stoke the flames of the Spirit within us. Christians can stop going to church, not pray, not read the scriptures, and not be uplifted by Christian fellowship to the point where our faith becomes dull. That doesn't mean the Spirit is gone out and we are no longer saved. That would contradict what Christ, Himself, said in John 10 regarding the Father giving His people eternal life so that none of us should perish and that no one can snatch us out of His hand. The reason? We belong to Him as His bride and His reward and He will have each and every one of us.

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1) this is not God choosing His people, but His people choosing Him. This results if man getting the glory, or at least sharing in the glory, of their salvation because they get credit for doing something to contribute towards their salvation: they chose God. God is essentially rewarding people with salvation for their choice, which seems to contradict Paul's statements in Romans chapter 4 where he contrasts works of the law with faith as a gift from God. A works-based salvation is a wage earned. A faith-base salvation is God's gift that is not earned. If God is looking into the future to see what we do, He is giving us what we earned rather than gifting us with something we don't deserve.

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This has always been the calvinistic disconnect for me. Is God "rewarding" an individual "choice" or is that reward already bestowed upon all and waiting on the willing to accept? I've always thought the leap from mere acceptance to "works-based" was pretty large.

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I should switch from a church where clergy increasingly consists of humanists-in-disguise to one where that's been the case for decades?

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Men are men and much the same in their vices, whatever church they are in.....except for the one Man who said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church he established.

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Y'all stop this. This is a Methodist thread!

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K.. down with John Wesley!

j/k