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re: Public School Problems...
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:49 pm to upgrayedd
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:49 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
e. a disproportionate amount of black kids have shitty parents and we're trying to teach our teachers to take time away from the rest of the class to raise these disruptive kids because their parents should've been sterilized
sad but true
0
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:54 pm to wareaglepete
quote:Ahh....the wonders of bureaucracy.
but what measures would you look at
You know how we figure out who to promote in my organization?
The people who work with them recognize their talent and promote them.
It's an amazing process that governments are 100% allergic to.
quote:Nope. You can't. You would likely have to interview them and assess if you thought they'd work out.......then.......if they did......great........if not, fire them. Again. There's this entire world out there beyond govt bureaucracies that apply this approach every day!
, I am sure the process is probably way too crazy as it is government, but can everyone just teach because they are good at math?
quote:I submit that the very fact we're having this conversation means that even the regimented process fails in identifying this cool trait. Just sayin.
How do you know you could be successful. Teaching is more than just knowing how good your math or science skills are.
Teaching certificates have shown no ability to guarantee us that the people will actually be good teachers but, they HAVE eliminated our ability to look elsewhere!
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:56 pm to deeprig9
This guy speaks the truth
He says it’s the “diverse demographics” making the schools bad
Why are demographics always causing problems?
He says it’s the “diverse demographics” making the schools bad
Why are demographics always causing problems?
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:57 pm to el Gaucho
quote:
Why are demographics always causing problems?
Demographics are ornery little beasties
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:58 pm to TbirdSpur2010
Demographics
Democrats
No coincidence there folks.
Democrats
No coincidence there folks.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:58 pm to TbirdSpur2010
I’m just glad I’m not responsible for watching a room full of demographic kids like these teachers are
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:01 pm to Ollieoxenfree99
quote:
Demographics
Democrats
No coincidence there folks.
They go together like frick and frack
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:02 pm to ShortyRob
Good points shorty. My worry on merit increases is that we recognize talent in the real world by production and getting the job done. I guess with a teacher, it would be how kids perform on tests, who moves on, and average grades. But, if pay is attached, you have to worry about gaming. That would have to be monitored very closely. And, I think you would need evaluators who are not held to these measures to decide on increases. The problem there is you just added more HR type roles.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:30 pm to wareaglepete
quote:I don't think this is as hard as it seems and it's not as dry as test measure. THAT is a bureaucracy approach.
My worry on merit increases is that we recognize talent in the real world by production and getting the job done. I guess with a teacher, it would be how kids perform on tests,
I can guarantee you that if I hung out with the faculty and all the teachers at a fricking resort for 2 weeks that after those two weeks, I'd know who the best teachers were. You know why? The teachers and faculty would TELL ME!
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:31 pm to wareaglepete
quote:
My worry on merit increases is that we recognize talent in the real world by production and getting the job done. I guess with a teacher, it would be how kids perform on tests, who moves on, and average grades. But, if pay is attached, you have to worry about gaming.
Why not implement merit the way colleges do? Let's throw out private colleges. Hell, let's throw out rich public colleges. Let's just take ONE college... Let's take LSU.
A physics professor at LSU with a masters and 5 years experience makes more money than an English Lit teacher with a masters and 5 years experience.
Why? It's called supply and demand. It's called the free market. It can be done.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:32 pm to Zach
quote:
Why not implement merit the way colleges do? Let's throw out private colleges. Hell, let's throw out rich public colleges. Let's just take ONE college... Let's take LSU.
A physics professor at LSU with a masters and 5 years experience makes more money than an English Lit teacher with a masters and 5 years experience.
Why? It's called supply and demand. It's called the free market. It can be done.
This is a different question.
Yes. Differential pay based on supply demand should exist for schools.
But, his question was of identifying who gets promoted/raises which is what I've been addressing.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:36 pm to wareaglepete
quote:
I guess with a teacher, it would be how kids perform on tests
The problem with that is the skewing by the shitty parents.
For years I have said that the biggest problem with poorly performing schools is the community they are in. These communities have an over-abundance of people who are shitty (their shittyness is proven out by the types and frequency of their poor life choices they continually make). These shitty people make shitty parents and thus their kids learn nothing but how to be shitty.
For these kids in this type of situation you can take a school, fill it full of the best teachers and administrators in the world and the positive gains would be minor. Why? Because the moment those kids are out of school they are once again bombarded by the constant reinforcement of how the only way to live life is by making shitty choices.
The only way to fix such schools is to set up some sort of boarding school system that takes the children (the younger the better) far enough away from their shitty families and communities that it's too difficult for the families to come continue their shitty influencing (except when the kids are back for holidays). Unfortunately the costs of doing this would be astronomical.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:39 pm to Bard
quote:I can predict with about 99% accuracy, the test scores of any school if you give me the following information.
For years I have said that the biggest problem with poorly performing schools is the community they are in.
1)Test Score results for the state they are in.
2)Demographic breakdown of the school in question.
3)Demographic breakdown of the state.
4)State results by demographic
There are no "good schools" or "bad schools".
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:44 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
Yes. Differential pay based on supply demand should exist for schools. But, his question was of identifying who gets promoted/raises which is what I've been addressing.
That's not the big difference between K-12 and college.
The big difference is that in college they can fire your arse for being a crappy teacher. In K-12 you have to murder one of your students to lose your job due to tenure.
There are no free market forces in K-12 education.
So the best teacher you ever had and the worst you ever had made the exact same salary.
Let me explain it this way. A college lit teacher has to have a very impressive list of degrees and terrific grades to get and hold a job at LSU. It's because there are tons of English teachers out there.
A HS lit teacher only has to pass the NTE (proving they are not retarded) and then to hold that job they must consistently demonstrate that they have a pulse.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:46 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
But, his question was of identifying who gets promoted/raises which is what I've been addressing.
It's hard because whatever metrics you use to determine merit will ultimately be abused. If you use standardized test scores, they will teach to the test or flat out help the students cheat.
Testing is the only way to assess academic progress, but how can it be done in a way that is less susceptible to compromise?
This may already exist, but what about a basic skills assessment at the beginning of the year to set a baseline, and then a similar test at the end of the year to establish the progress?
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:47 pm to Zach
quote:And THAT goes to my point.
The big difference is that in college they can fire your arse for being a crappy teacher
We don't need to promote them based upon test scores. Their peers and immediate leaders know if they're good or not.
quote:Exactly.
There are no free market forces in K-12 education.
Keep in mind, this started because I pointed that out. That a fantastic teacher with 4 years of service gets paid less than the teacher with 10 years of service who everyone thinks probably should be fired.
As long as that exists, we're all just whistling in the graveyard.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:13 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
Exactly.
Keep in mind, this started because I pointed that out. That a fantastic teacher with 4 years of service gets paid less than the teacher with 10 years of service who everyone thinks probably should be fired.
As long as that exists, we're all just whistling in the graveyard.
I agree entirely.
The K12 education system is a microcosm of socialist economics.
This post was edited on 12/14/18 at 2:15 pm
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:57 pm to volod
quote:
The K12 education system is a microcosm of socialist economics.
And this is why Japan can't understand why US K-12 is inferior to theirs but US colleges are superior to theirs.
The closest thing you can find to a market driven element in US public schools is ISDs.
If you live in a rich ISD like Glenview/Northbrook, Ill. you will have teachers that make well over 100K a year. That means for every open position there will be 50 teachers applying for the job.
And it also means the students will be high IQ to begin with since there is a correlation between income and IQ. But it's still a public school system.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 3:10 pm to Bard
quote:
For these kids in this type of situation you can take a school, fill it full of the best teachers and administrators in the world and the positive gains would be minor. Why? Because the moment those kids are out of school they are once again bombarded by the constant reinforcement of how the only way to live life is by making shitty choices
This is 100% right on. I'm the board chair of a charter school in North Memphis, and I see this all of the time. We lose some good students with potential because the parents aren't on board. It's really sad to see a kid who wants to be educated but they don't get the backing at home
Posted on 12/14/18 at 4:41 pm to deeprig9
This is why I didn't mind staying broke paying tuition for 14 yrs of my life,
also the reason Oconee County has grown immensely over the last decade.
also the reason Oconee County has grown immensely over the last decade.
This post was edited on 12/14/18 at 4:52 pm
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