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re: Racial tensions will never go away so long as we are afraid to have honest discussions
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:01 am to weagle99
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:01 am to weagle99
quote:
Racial tensions will never go away so long as we are afraid to have honest discussions
We can have honest discussions till we're all blue in the face. If people can't have those conversations in a respectful manner, it would mean nothing. If the left were more respectful to those with different views, their ideas would be a lot more welcome. Disrespecting a person because of their beliefs is counter productive. Sure, their are those people who's beliefs are rooted in hate for others just because of the color of their skin. But not ever person who votes R is a racist. Not every person who votes D is a socialist. We need to understand that respect generates healthy debate. Only problem is, you have to give respect to recieve it. The left is constantly deeming every conservative position as a position of hate and destroying constructive conversation.
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Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:02 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Some of the root causes date back to the Reconstruction era
I think that all present day racial strife stems from reconstruction. There are not 2 dozen people in the entire nation who really think black slavery was a good idea, or that it should be 'honored' in any way. When the Civil War ended, both sides treated the other side as honorable men, engaged in a horrible war brought on by economic/social conflicts that resulted in the disastrous conflict.
Had Lincoln survived, reconstruction would have been handled entirely differently and I truly believe that racial strife would have completely disappeared before the turn of the century.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:04 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
I think that all present day racial strife stems from reconstruction.
I definitely agree.
quote:
Had Lincoln survived, reconstruction would have been handled entirely differently and I truly believe that racial strife would have completely disappeared before the turn of the century.
The integration would certainly have been better, and we would be all better off. Reconstruction created lots of bitterness, I don't see how anyone can deny that.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:07 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
This is not true.
Why don't you start posting that on FB or elsewhere then and report back on how that is recieved.
Just start suggesting to the world that King wasn't the person ultimately responsible and let us know how that is received.
This post was edited on 8/14/17 at 11:09 am
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:07 am to OchoDedos
quote:
honest conversation
This is another phrase that - along with "strength thru diversity" - makes me want to puke.
I have never heard anyone asking for an 'honest conversation' really mean it - what they invariably mean is to have a podium from which they can demean the other person.
There may have been a time when those asking for an 'honest conversation' really meant they wanted to debate a topic, but I do not recall a single instance of that in my long life.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:09 am to weagle99
quote:
Why don't you start posting that on FB or elsewhere then and report back on how that is recieved.
Posting what? Sections of Letters from Birmingham Jail?
I can attest that what is taught in college academic environments is not what you suggested. I do not know what is taught among black people themselves, or that you, by yourself, would have access to such group specific knowledge.
ETA: I just saw your edit. That King wasn't the person who started it is a fact. Whether people believe me, or the facts of history, is another thing. Why you think the opinions of ignorant people have any relevance to the honest discussions that you profess is another matter. It suggests what you want isn't honesty, but blame.
This post was edited on 8/14/17 at 11:12 am
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:10 am to weagle99
quote:
honest discussions
extremists don't want honest discussions
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:11 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
y, I'd argue that there is a generational mistrust by black people of white people
Does anyone dispute this?
quote:
We spend a lot of time discussing the Civil War, but we don't talk about the extremely damaging Reconstruction era, where the feelings of bitterness on both sides were planted, and have yet to be uprooted, despite constant pleas for honesty
To the extent that we discuss racial history, we discuss it in the context of whites mistreating blacks. True or false?
If Reconstruction isn't discussed enough, I'm going to have to assume that it's because the discussion wouldn't blame whites as much as whatever else is being discussed. Though it is somewhat surprising we aren't all still being constantly reminded of the ugly details of however many lynchings occurred.
The history of racial conflict is ugly, and so is the present.
quote:
Any discussion has to start with an honest discussion of history.
Can we follow that with a discussion of genetics? Or is that not allowed? That's the honesty that's lacking.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:14 am to uway
quote:
I'm going to have to assume that it's because the discussion wouldn't blame whites as much as whatever else is being discussed.
I start with the Reconstruction because that is where the bitterness began, in my view. That the bitterness dissipated on one side and not the other is also entirely relevant. In fact, that's why we should consider the era that began the bitterness more carefully.
quote:
Can we follow that with a discussion of genetics? Or is that not allowed? That's the honesty that's lacking.
Sure. But the question is what should we do with such information.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:15 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
I have never heard anyone asking for an 'honest conversation' really mean it - what they invariably mean is to have a podium from which they can demean the other person.
That's a good point. A conversation should involve a give and take, a concession of points on both sides. I don't think anyone is ready to concede, and it will probably be to our detriment.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:19 am to weagle99
The honest assessment should include the recognition that working class and whites and blacks have everything to gain by realizing their problems aren't caused by each other.
Rather it is an entire political/economic power structure that effaces itself by pitting working people of all races/ethnicities against each other.
The degree to which white vs black or low income worker vs immigrant dominates the conversation focuses attention away from the trail of money.
Most racial issues would be pushed to the extreme fringes if more of that money found its way into hands of working people.
Rather it is an entire political/economic power structure that effaces itself by pitting working people of all races/ethnicities against each other.
The degree to which white vs black or low income worker vs immigrant dominates the conversation focuses attention away from the trail of money.
Most racial issues would be pushed to the extreme fringes if more of that money found its way into hands of working people.
This post was edited on 8/14/17 at 11:30 am
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:21 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
I start with the Reconstruction because that is where the bitterness began, in my view. That the bitterness dissipated on one side and not the other is also entirely relevant. In fact, that's why we should consider the era that began the bitterness more carefully
If "we" had the ideal conversation, according to your standards, what would that look like? And what would it entail? What are present day whites supposed to do about what their ancestors did?
quote:
But the question is what should we do with such information
Depends on what the information tells us. If it says that peoples who evolved under substantially different circumstances have substantially different proclivities and mean abilities, them maybe we could stop blaming one section of society for the inequities that exist.
If it doesn't say that, then we can all move on.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:22 am to weagle99
The media won't allow honest discussion
Posted on 8/14/17 at 11:31 am to uway
quote:
If "we" had the ideal conversation, according to your standards, what would that look like? And what would it entail? What are present day whites supposed to do about what their ancestors did?
It certainly wouldn't entail the destruction of monuments. I think our complicated racial history should be a monument to the rest of the world as how to move past it. It might start with why black people are distrustful, as many attempts at political organization were met with violence. Or why whites acted in such a manner, as they were angry they had the terms dictated to them by outsiders.
quote:
If it says that peoples who evolved under substantially different circumstances have substantially different proclivities and mean abilities, them maybe we could stop blaming one section of society for the inequities that exist.
That groups of people evolved differently is a fact, and the main issue, it seems to me, is how to structure our education system in order to get the best out of everyone. If we acknowledge the difference and design our schools in such a way that leads to perpetual poverty for one group of people, the people who say that one section of society is responsible for inequality will have ammunition.
With the age of automation coming, we desperately have to redesign our schools, and we should do it so that we get the best out of everyone, and those who don't want to succeed can blame no one but themselves. Leaving it to genetics by itself and absolving ourselves of the issue will lead to more problems.
I read a compelling book called Weapons of the Weak by a sociologist who studied class in Malaysia. Some of his conclusions were that resistance to social norms is a part of a broader resistance of those people who feel left out of society at large. That there will always be people alienated is not the issue. Furthering that alienation is. Thus any discussion of genetics without a discussion of how to design a system so that those people who are not as capable do not become alienated is an incomplete discussion, in my view.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 1:10 pm to weagle99
quote:wut
Has anyone ever told them who controlled the power structure and allowed them to achieve the gains they have?
No. They are taught that King and others just showed up and decided to change society one day, with no thought given to the fact that whites controlled the country. But if someone even suggests such a (true) idea that the decision utlimately rested with the white power structure that person will be shouted down as a bigot.
Just one example.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 1:11 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:And how many white men went on to terrorize them for 100 years after the death of the 360K supposedly put the issue to rest? YOU seem to have forgotten about THAT.
It's almost as if some blacks have forgotten (or perhaps genuinely didn't know ?) that 360K , give or take , WHITE MEN died to free blacks from slavery in this country.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 1:15 pm to HubbaBubba
quote:
I've got about ten minutes. Can you explain these root causes, please?
Blacks: 'It's due to white racists.'
Whites: 'It's genetics.'
Discussion is over. Problem solved.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 1:24 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:And what color were the people who passed the laws, made court decisions and created myriad other institutions to defend the rights of blacks?
And how many white men went on to terrorize them for 100 years after the death of the 360K supposedly put the issue to rest? YOU seem to have forgotten about THAT.
This is the problem with the whole, "well, it's all cool to frick "white people" now because "white people" fricked us at some point in the past logic.
In that environment, it is impossible to talk about anything because everything is viewed as "which team gets the one up" thinking.
It fricks EVERYTHING up.
For example. We could take huge strides in education if created fantastic vocational tracks like many other top nations do and tracked kids who were not necessarily college bound to learn real skills.
But, the kids who would largely fill those classes initially would, as always is the case, be from less well off homes. And, that group would be disproportionately minority.
So. Even though long term, this would do fantastic things for the American underclass, we can't even consider it because it'll get called racist.
Hell. I actually watched a school board President lauding his district over "closing the gap" between minorities and whites. It came out later that the white scores in the district had gotten worse and SO HAD the minority scores. But, the gap closed.
THAT is a fricked up way to approach the world when you are happier about closing gaps than about achievement.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 1:25 pm to weagle99
Exactly right
Posted on 8/14/17 at 1:27 pm to Haughton99
Ah. Everyone who disagrees with you is "racist"
Exhibit A
Discussion closed
Exhibit A
Discussion closed
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