re: Obtuse Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice TD review thread (SPOILERS p5+)

There are some interesting points made in this interview that suggest that Lex was communicating with someone. Debora Snyder, Zack Snyder, and Charles Roven. Also more about what was going through Lex's mind. There were some Frankenstein undertones going on with creating Doomsday.

LINK

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Odd. Very odd.

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Too vague. We need to know how you felt about the Martha scene.

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You mind if I ask an honest question? For even those who seem to like the movie, the resounding line seems to be stuff like, "Well...it wasn't that bad" or at least muffled praise.

Why?

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Simple answer for me: this was getting murdered in the opening critical reviews. Based on the RT score, I was thinking I was walking into a HORRIBLE movie.

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Given they had these well known and epic heroes to work with, and clearly an unlimited budget (and three years from the release of MoS) what would have made this movie near the top of your comic book list, and why do you think they failed to do these things?

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Superman is very hard to do within an extended universe. He can hear Lois cry out for help a continent away, and be there in a second. As displayed in this movie, he can take a nuke to the face and shake it off. Honestly, even that is a little depowered from my knowledge growing up of him, as he used to be able to fly into the heart of a supernova without issues.
Plus, he's a do-gooder, not a vigilante. Again as this film shows- "well, let me go fly to South America real quick and get those folks out of that burning building, I'll be right back".
In contrast, Batman improves with a realistic setting.

How do you reconcile the two? How does Superman allow crime to get so bad, and how does he allow Batman's brand of justice terrorism?
The film tried to address that;
he saved Lois from an African warlord, and there were repercussions afterwards towards the villagers. He would need to occupy the territory (like a 1 man peacekeeping force) to combat terrorism and enforce the peace, and that's a little to repressive for his tastes (and for society- they don't want Superman to enforce anything, they only want him to save them).
In fighting Zod (and likely Doomsday), there were collateral casualties. Again, this is presented in the film. And like our own reality, these collateral folks are bitter, and probably would like to sue. Hell, if Superman was real, there would likely be a huge stack of lawsuits, both legit and frivolous, and he won't/can't pay up. That then falls on the government, most likely, and that would lead to attempts of government control. Plus, the whole xenophobia and religious aspects- how many fundamentalists would scream that he's the Antichrist? He's not even really human. As the film states, he's proof that we are not alone, and that we're not particularly special.

I don't know how you go about making this a better film, and keep him in it.

For dramatic purposes, your hero needs a legitimate challenge. Someone has to face off against Superman, and not be squashed immediately. This film used the "kidnap mama as a hostage" device, to keep Lex from suffering the same fate as the African warlord. It worked per the script, I don't know how else you get Supes to behave.

Then, the Doomsday fight. Stronger, but dumber, than Superman. The kryptonite spear was the only option; ironically it's the one option Superman can't employ himself. He can't make it, and he couldn't wield it safely. Batman made it with Luthor's tech, and in theory Wonder Woman could have used it... but then we don't get the sacrifice.

A lot has been made of "Martha". It was a little clumsy, I definitely would have thought that set of lines would have been a priority to get right, from day 1. I buy the sentiment, but would definitely have liked to have it worded a little better.
I do buy the sentiment- Batman isn't an assassin, he's worked himself up to do this. He even made a point of talking ugly: "I'm sure your parents told you that you were special, but you're not... yada yada". I get this- Batman has to kill someone because they are too powerful and dangerous, not because they are a bad or evil person. Superman is finished, Batman has won, and Supes doesn't beg for mercy or say "frick you", he says that his mother is going to die because he didn't come out and kill Batman... and although that was his only option, he still wouldn't do it.
Hits a nerve in Batman. This super being is a decent guy, who refused to kill someone undeserving, even to save his own mother. The "Martha" namedrop triggers an emotional response in Bruce (a guy who's having tormented nightmares to this day about his parents' death, and who's been driven to become what he is due to it). Batman knows he would kill to save his own mother, if given the option... (just my take). So now, he's forced to come to grips with the fact that he's about to kill a better man than he is, in the name of "doing the right thing". He rejects that, and casts his lot with Superman.
*I think that was the intent. It certainly could have been done way more eloquently. It wasn't so mangled that I missed it.

So, DC is building a universe with multiple heroes, and this is the launch. As detailed above, the Superman issue hovers over everything, complicating it.

Remove Superman, and we get a GREAT Batman movie, with a believable actor, fantastic action, and some neat schemes. Alfred and Bruce are wonderful together, they are like a pair of rogue special agents. Alfred is the mentor, but looks like he could still wield a gun if need be. He needles Bruce about "growing up" as he's growing older, little comments about extending the Wayne line. Bruce talks about using "the suit" like it's some special commando gear, just a tool in his arsenal. He's still active, but jaded and wants a higher purpose.
I don't think they could have done the Batman action scenes any better, he is both an impressive fighter and a scary "devil"... something we haven't been shown until now, not at this level. He's fricking terrifying to the girls and the cops in that apartment building, and a straight up beast against Luthor's thugs.
I love this Batman, he's worth the price of admission, and God, I want more of him!

Wonder Woman- sleek, suave and stylish as Ms Prince. Very exotic, and capable of matching Bruce at his games of intrigue in the rich settings. She's like a Mossad agent, or a Bond girl (and not the helpless version). She fricking toys with Bruce. "Typical boy"...
And then she kicks into action- just WOW. If this were in Marvel's universe, she handles Tony Stark in the rich man world, and then goes a few rounds with Thor, and you're not sure who would win. If the gauntlets (forget the shield) deflect heat vision, I think they withstand anything else the comic book world has to throw at them.
And what comes across, is that she's enjoying fighting against Doomsday (who is stronger than Superman). "I've killed monsters from other worlds before", with a little smirk . No fear, she just chops off a fist, and intends to whittle his arse down. And don't let her get that lasso on you, it's all over then.

To me, this movie does it's job. It has enough action to justify the blockbuster title (and that's what comic book movies are, really). It gives us 2 really, really good new characters to go along with Superman (who's a little more fleshed out than he was in MOS).
And between Batman's nightmares and Lex's mirroring statements about the impending devils from the heavens, it sets the stage for something down the road, a reason to create more films.

Great explanation of the Martha moment, superman's selflessness, and its relation to Bruce's failure. It's what I was feeling and got a better sense of it on the second viewing, however I couldn't illustrate it as well with words as you did.

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I have heard quite a few people enjoy it on the rewatch

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There's a ton of shite going on, very little is just filler. I plan on catching it again, and will get the blu-ray too (for that very purpose).

Spoilers actually helped me... not deep ones, but reading comments like "there are those dream sequences". I saw some still shots of the desert dream.
I would not have picked up the giant Omega symbol otherwise.

I didn't want to actually "spoil" the movie, just catch some tips on things to look for (for example, I steered clear of any ending surprises, so I wasn't sure if Superman was going to go down. However, I have a passing knowledge of what Doomsday did, so I suspected as much). So I don't even know what all I missed the first go-around.
For example, I wonder- Luthor's Asian chick sees Wayne by the server, then Prince gets his hacker gizmo. Prince is also aware of Luthor looking into her. The Asian girl is pretty unique looking... is she in league with Wonder Woman? Is that (one of) her info sources? Or did she just track Bruce down herself, and then steal the gizmo?

If the girl isn't with Wonder Woman, it seems odd that they'd show her finding Bruce, and nothing ever comes of it. They made a point of showing things, and having them mean something...

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The girl is Mercy, Luthor's assistant. Nothing comes of her finding Bruce because Luthor wanted Bruce to get the information and to steal the Kryptonite. It isn't coincidence that with all of the info that Bruce stole, there was nothing about the conspiracy to pit Batman and Superman against each other.

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Cool, thanks.

Why would Luthor provide the intel on the meta-humans, though? He knew nothing of them, Wonder Woman or otherwise.

Was he hoping to trigger more paranoia and make Wayne more unstable?
Or if Batman won (and he did, he just didn't finish Supes off), he'd go after the others next?

As it turns out, he DOES go after the others, just not to kill them...

Just saw it. I liked it. Enjoyed the story. Don't know about all the back stories of Wonder Woman and the Flash.

I liked the storyline on why Batman hated Superman. I liked the big fight, Doomsday and some of the nightmares.

Just saw it as well.

Loved Batman.
Liked Superman

Hated Batman fighting Superman.

I thought the buildup was freaking epic. It was actually a good reason for the movie.

Loved how they got there. Then the reason for the fight, the fight, and the reason they stopped fighting was moronic.