Rian Johnson talks about his experience with The Last Jedi

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With Last Jedi, there was a popular conception that you and J.J. Abrams didn’t really talk, which is why certain ideas get undone from one movie to the next. What was your actual level of communication with him?  

We communicated. We met and I spent days with him and was able to get into his head and all the choices he had made. That having been said, I communicated and I went and made the movie. And he was in the middle of Force Awakens. Ultimately, I feel like the choices in it, none of them were born out of an intent to “undo” anything. They were all borne out of the opposite intent of, how do I take this story that J.J. wrote, that I really loved, and these characters he created that I really loved, and take them to the next step? Kathy [Kennedy, the president of Lucasfilm] said, “We’re looking at someone to do the Empire [Strikes Back] of this series.” I took that assignment very seriously. Maybe more seriously than someone would have liked. I guess to me that didn’t mean making something that just had nods to Empire — that meant trying to genuinely do what Empire did.

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But just to use an example, Force Awakens sets up Snoke as the big villain of the new trilogy, with a mysterious backstory. And then midway through Last Jedi, Kylo Ren slices him in two and takes over the First Order.

That was, in reading J.J.’s script, and watching the dailies, and seeing the power of Adam Driver’s character. The interrogation scene in the first movie, between Rey and Kylo, was so incredibly powerful. Seeing this complicated villain that’s been created, I was just so compelled by that. This is all a matter of perspective and phrasing, but to me, I didn’t easily dispense with Snoke. I took great pains to use him in the most dramatically impactful way I could, which was to then take Kylo’s character to the next level and set him up as well as I possibly could. I guess it all comes down to your point of view. I thought, “This is such a compelling and complicated villain. This is this is who it makes sense going forward to build around.”

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There was talk for a while of you being involved with the third movie. And then you weren’t. What was the timeline on that relative to you working on Last Jedi? Was that decision made before that film was done or after?

I think we must have been wrapping up. But also, to be clear, we had never put our names in the hat. We never were anticipating doing a third one. It was nothing we were pitching ourselves for, and [Kennedy] made the decision. 

The reason I ask is that some people have suggested you thought you might get to do both, and when you discovered that you wouldn’t, you decided to squeeze every idea you ever had for Star Wars into this one film.

No, absolutely not. The reality is, if I thought I was doing both of them, I would have ended it the same way. From the very start, the assignment was doing [film number] eight, and another director would do nine. I didn’t know it would be J.J. But the whole thing was being the middle leg of the race.

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Speaking of which, Last Jedi was a big hit. It was critically acclaimed at the time. But because there is some subset of some unknown size that is really, really mad online about it, that then becomes the dominant narrative about the movie. What do you remember as that backlash was happening? How did that feel for you to be witnessing it?

In the moment, it’s a complicated chain of reactions to it. It never feels good to have anybody coming after you on the Internet, and especially coming after you saying things that I think I very much do not agree with about a thing I made and put a lot of heart and soul into. But at the same time, having grown up a Star Wars fan ultimately let me contextualize it and feel at peace with it in many different ways. Just remembering, going back on one level to arguing on the playground about Star Wars as a kid. And I was in college when the prequels came out. My friends and I were Prequel Hate Central. Everyone was ruthless at the time. And of course now the prequels are embraced. I’m not saying that as a facile, “Oh, things will flip around in 20 years, you’ll see!” It’s more that this push and pull, and this hatred to stuff that seems new, this is all part of being a Star Wars fan. Culture-war garbage aside, I think that essential part of it is a healthy part.

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What happened with the other Star Wars trilogy there were talks of you doing?

Nothing really happened with it. We had a great time working together, and they said, “Let’s keep doing it.” I said, “Great!” I would kick ideas around with Kathy. The short version is Knives Out happened. I went off and made Knives Out, and was off to the races, busy making murder mysteries. It’s the sort of thing if, down the line, there’s an opportunity to do it, or do something else in Star Wars, I would be thrilled. But right now I’m just doing my own stuff, and pretty happy.

How far did you get in terms of an idea? Was there a whole thing mapped out, at least for what the first of those would be?

It was all very conceptual. I made Knives Out fairly quickly after. There was never any outline or treatment or anything.

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