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Russian vs Ukraine conflict in a nutshell. It’s not always about what they tell you!
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:43 pm
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:43 pm
Borrowed from a friend who has a friend very familiar with the conflict and was given this explanation.
So after a debate with a friend I wanted solid education on the Russia Ukraine issue.
In 1932 Stalin punished western ukraine for lacking in grain production. Millions starved. The eastern Ukranians did not get punished because they were the industrial port towns and had nothing to do w grain. They did not know how bad the west got it. When WW2 happened, Western Ukraine joined the Nazis under leaderships from Steppan Bandera, to get back at USSR for the famine. They went into Eastern Ukraine and massacred mad ppl. From then on, East and West Ukraine were not friendly towards each other. When USSR fell in 1991, Ukraine got independence and they broke into East (pro Russian) and west (anti russian) parties. Same as dems vs repubs here. Back and forth they were electing presidents that were either pro or against Russia. In 2008 an anti Russian president proclaimed Bandera to be a hero of Ukraine (the guy who was a nazi). This angered east insanely. They elected their own president soon after but then the west got mad and decided to overthrow him in 2014 with American and Nato encouragement. THIS IS WHERE THE WAR THAT IS GOING ON NOW STARTS. Russia came into Crimea unapposed (crimea is 90% russian by nationality). They let Russia in for protection against the west. Donetsk and Lugansk wanted independence from the west of ukraine as well and fought them in civil war (seperatists). This has been going on for 10 years until Russia finally decided to help their allies in the east. That is the truth to it all. A civil war from old hatereds fueled by western countries for economic gain.
The reason it is correct to say that Ukraine started the war is because the coup against a democraticly elected government and all the consequences that followed occurred in 2014 by the anti Russian side. Why is it legal for one side to overthrow government but illegal for the other side to want to split off? That is how the US and NATO spun it basically. But all of this can be confirmed. I can link you news from us sources that accurately reported all this when it was still allowed.
NBC News
LINK
So in a nutshell... Russia is protecting its people (E Ukraine) and the Western world/NATO has made Americans see Putin bad Zelenskyy good. Neither are good but Ukraine absolutely did have a hand in starting/preventing/stopping this. They are just as cuplable
So after a debate with a friend I wanted solid education on the Russia Ukraine issue.
In 1932 Stalin punished western ukraine for lacking in grain production. Millions starved. The eastern Ukranians did not get punished because they were the industrial port towns and had nothing to do w grain. They did not know how bad the west got it. When WW2 happened, Western Ukraine joined the Nazis under leaderships from Steppan Bandera, to get back at USSR for the famine. They went into Eastern Ukraine and massacred mad ppl. From then on, East and West Ukraine were not friendly towards each other. When USSR fell in 1991, Ukraine got independence and they broke into East (pro Russian) and west (anti russian) parties. Same as dems vs repubs here. Back and forth they were electing presidents that were either pro or against Russia. In 2008 an anti Russian president proclaimed Bandera to be a hero of Ukraine (the guy who was a nazi). This angered east insanely. They elected their own president soon after but then the west got mad and decided to overthrow him in 2014 with American and Nato encouragement. THIS IS WHERE THE WAR THAT IS GOING ON NOW STARTS. Russia came into Crimea unapposed (crimea is 90% russian by nationality). They let Russia in for protection against the west. Donetsk and Lugansk wanted independence from the west of ukraine as well and fought them in civil war (seperatists). This has been going on for 10 years until Russia finally decided to help their allies in the east. That is the truth to it all. A civil war from old hatereds fueled by western countries for economic gain.
The reason it is correct to say that Ukraine started the war is because the coup against a democraticly elected government and all the consequences that followed occurred in 2014 by the anti Russian side. Why is it legal for one side to overthrow government but illegal for the other side to want to split off? That is how the US and NATO spun it basically. But all of this can be confirmed. I can link you news from us sources that accurately reported all this when it was still allowed.
NBC News
LINK
So in a nutshell... Russia is protecting its people (E Ukraine) and the Western world/NATO has made Americans see Putin bad Zelenskyy good. Neither are good but Ukraine absolutely did have a hand in starting/preventing/stopping this. They are just as cuplable
This post was edited on 2/20/25 at 12:50 pm
21
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:45 pm to Asleepinthecove
quote:
Russian vs Ukraine conflict in a nutshell.
quote:
They elected their own president soon after but then the west got mad and decided to overthrow him in 2014 with American and Nato encouragement. THIS IS WHERE THE WAR THAT IS GOING ON NOW STARTS.
Oh boy...
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:46 pm to Asleepinthecove
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:48 pm to Asleepinthecove
Great post.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:50 pm to Asleepinthecove
quote:
The reason it is correct to say that Ukraine started the war is because the coup against a democraticly elected government and all the consequences that followed occurred in 2014 by the anti Russian side
What if, and I know this may be shocking, the same Parliament that approved EU integration at over 90% in 2013 was upset with the President who lied to them and unilaterally and without Parliamentary approval, rejected EU integration and then signed an unpopular trade deal with Russia?
Do you think it's within the reasonable realm of possibilities that the Parliament who voted at over 90% approval in joining the EU may, on its own, seek to remove the President who went against their wishes?
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:54 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
What if, and I know this may be shocking, the same Parliament that approved EU integration at over 90% in 2013 was upset with the President who lied to them and unilaterally and without Parliamentary approval, rejected EU integration and then signed an unpopular trade deal with Russia?
Do you think it's within the reasonable realm of possibilities that the Parliament who voted at over 90% approval in joining the EU may, on its own, seek to remove the President who went against their wishes?
Which basically aligns with his post. This has been going on for years. Not just 2013 like you have been harping.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:55 pm to Warboo
quote:
Which basically aligns with his post.
Except the "coup" part
Posted on 2/20/25 at 12:59 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Except the "coup" part
I guess you missed Bunk's post above. Kinda explains the "coup" part
'
Posted on 2/20/25 at 1:04 pm to Asleepinthecove
The historical part of your recitation is simplistic and completely overlooks the fact that western Ukraine belonged to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth for a very long time, during which it was allowed to retain its language and culture, while eastern Ukraine belonged to the Russian Empire and was subjected to an extensive campaign of russification.
This campaign of russification by the Tsars is why eastern Ukraine is populated largely by ethnic Ukrainians (with a few ethnic Russians, thanks largely to forced resettlement over the years) who speak Russian as their native language, rather than speaking Ukrainian.
Americans have a (shallow) tendency to assume that the Russophones in eastern Ukraine are automatically ethnic Russians and therefore sympathetic to Russian aims in the region. Those people are mistaken.
This campaign of russification by the Tsars is why eastern Ukraine is populated largely by ethnic Ukrainians (with a few ethnic Russians, thanks largely to forced resettlement over the years) who speak Russian as their native language, rather than speaking Ukrainian.
Americans have a (shallow) tendency to assume that the Russophones in eastern Ukraine are automatically ethnic Russians and therefore sympathetic to Russian aims in the region. Those people are mistaken.
This post was edited on 2/20/25 at 2:07 pm
Posted on 2/20/25 at 1:27 pm to Asleepinthecove
The hate between Soviet Union and Ukraine starts in 1917, most of the Ukraine fought on the White side in the civil war. With the Soviet Union winning this war, many Ukrainians are shot for supporting the Whites.
Then comes the man-made famines in the Ukraine of 1921-23 and the larger one of 1932-33. The second famine killed millions in the Ukraine, the food was shipped out of the Ukraine to the large cities of Leningrad and Moscow etc. The 32-33 famine was so bad families turned to cannibalism. This as they watched all their food was sent north.
When the Germans invaded the Ukraine in July 1941, the Ukrainians saw them as liberators. By the time of Stalingrad 100,000s Ukrainians were fighting for the Germans. At Stalingrad alone over 90,000 Ukrainians were fighting for the Germans and many in the German divisions fighting in Stalingrad. When the Russians pushed through the Ukraine on the way to Berlin, they shot, hung, and force almost every male in the Ukraine to join the Soviet Army. Many Ukrainians hide and attacked the Soviet supply lines at this time.
War World II did not end in 1945 in the Ukraine, fighting between the Ukrainians the Soviet Union lasted into 1949.
And do not forget the Soviet Union forced relocated 100,000s to Siberia, like the Cossacks, Germans, Poles etc. The Germans numbers are near 90,000 to the Southeast of Kyiv. Poles mostly west of Kyiv, the Cossacks in the east, where most of the early fighting of the war took place.
The Ukrainians do not hate the Russian people, mostly the Soviet Union and the outgrowth of that failed system.
Then comes the man-made famines in the Ukraine of 1921-23 and the larger one of 1932-33. The second famine killed millions in the Ukraine, the food was shipped out of the Ukraine to the large cities of Leningrad and Moscow etc. The 32-33 famine was so bad families turned to cannibalism. This as they watched all their food was sent north.
When the Germans invaded the Ukraine in July 1941, the Ukrainians saw them as liberators. By the time of Stalingrad 100,000s Ukrainians were fighting for the Germans. At Stalingrad alone over 90,000 Ukrainians were fighting for the Germans and many in the German divisions fighting in Stalingrad. When the Russians pushed through the Ukraine on the way to Berlin, they shot, hung, and force almost every male in the Ukraine to join the Soviet Army. Many Ukrainians hide and attacked the Soviet supply lines at this time.
War World II did not end in 1945 in the Ukraine, fighting between the Ukrainians the Soviet Union lasted into 1949.
And do not forget the Soviet Union forced relocated 100,000s to Siberia, like the Cossacks, Germans, Poles etc. The Germans numbers are near 90,000 to the Southeast of Kyiv. Poles mostly west of Kyiv, the Cossacks in the east, where most of the early fighting of the war took place.
The Ukrainians do not hate the Russian people, mostly the Soviet Union and the outgrowth of that failed system.
This post was edited on 2/20/25 at 1:28 pm
Posted on 2/20/25 at 1:32 pm to Asleepinthecove
The US tacitly started the war by sowing the seeds of aggression. Over 15 years ago the US promised Russia that it would not add additional NATO members. We specifically promised to not add the Ukraine. The Obama and Biden State Departments then went on a 12 year run of adding NATO members , overturning elections in Ukraine and publicly stating they would add Ukraine to NATO.
This is important bc the Russian have paranoia about Western invasion /encroachment ingrained into their DNA. Russia has been invaded by the west numerous times in the last 225 years. WWI and II cost the Russians 30 million plus lives. The OP makes accurate and great points, but it’s a piece of a larger puzzle. I hate Commies and can’t stand Putin. Unfortunately Obama and Biden leveraged this paranoia to “create” a conflict that they then used to line their pockets.
This is important bc the Russian have paranoia about Western invasion /encroachment ingrained into their DNA. Russia has been invaded by the west numerous times in the last 225 years. WWI and II cost the Russians 30 million plus lives. The OP makes accurate and great points, but it’s a piece of a larger puzzle. I hate Commies and can’t stand Putin. Unfortunately Obama and Biden leveraged this paranoia to “create” a conflict that they then used to line their pockets.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 1:34 pm to Asleepinthecove
This war goes back to the Mongolian invasion and the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.
You have a split identity where the Slavs in Western Ukraine have their own sense of nationalism
This is an area that has been Russian, Polish, and part of the Austro Hungarian Empire. Its agrarian and historically quite poor.
You have a split identity where the Slavs in Western Ukraine have their own sense of nationalism
This is an area that has been Russian, Polish, and part of the Austro Hungarian Empire. Its agrarian and historically quite poor.
This post was edited on 2/20/25 at 1:48 pm
Posted on 2/20/25 at 1:36 pm to Asleepinthecove
quote:
So in a nutshell... Russia is protecting its people (E Ukraine) and the Western world/NATO has made Americans see Putin bad Zelenskyy good. Neither are good but Ukraine absolutely did have a hand in starting/preventing/stopping this. They are just as cuplable
You can't tell these people here that. It goes against everything they've always believed. Hell, most of the Ukraine Bros or Neocon buttpads on this forum still believe Russia is a communist country with a planned economy.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 1:46 pm to Asleepinthecove
Excellent. Thanks for sharing this. I didn't know
Posted on 2/20/25 at 1:48 pm to Asleepinthecove
quote:
Putin bad Zelenskyy good. Neither are good but
Excellent summary of the situation for most who have ADD…i disagree “neither are good” re: Putin.
He brought Russia out of the brokenness of communism, got oligarchs on board and is rebuilding a national identity based on the Church, the family and the idea of one united Russia.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 2:01 pm to Asleepinthecove
Yea but at the start Russia didn't just want Eastern Ukraine did they? They wanted it all or to at least install a government that would be a Russian puppet. Basically another Lukashenko in Belarus.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 2:20 pm to LARancher1991
Let the Eastern areas form their own country. Allow those from the east and the west to move to the pro russia or pro western side as they see fit.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 2:25 pm to 1609tiger
This would have been the best option and could have possibly happened if the invasion and fighting had been only centered in Donetsk and Luhansk. But what people forget or either don't know cause they just started following the war is that Russia's first large scale offensive wasn't in the east. It was the Kiev offensive with plans to take the capitol. Once that happened what you are suggesting went out the window.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 2:29 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Except the "coup" part
In Ukraine a president was elected and was favorable to Russia….suddenly is no longer president….and is replaced by one that does the Untied States Bidding.
Rocket science. I know.
Posted on 2/20/25 at 2:30 pm to Asleepinthecove
Was your friend named Vladimir?
That’s a truncated and highly selective version of events.
That’s a truncated and highly selective version of events.
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