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re: Trying more to understand this fumble non recovery
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:22 am to burke985
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:22 am to burke985
I don’t really give a shite what the rule is (though it’s awful regardless). Greg Brooks had two hands on the ball with a knee down.
Down. Easy. LSU ball.
Should have been easy anyway
Down. Easy. LSU ball.
Should have been easy anyway
0
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:24 am to BayouBlitz
quote:
When a player who is out of bounds touches the ball, the play is dead. Period. T
Same would hold true for a player just on the sidelines, but not in on the play, right?
The in-game call was absurd. We HAD possession. The Bama “touching” was and should have been irrelevant to that fact.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:25 am to SlowFlowPro
If a defensive player stands with one toe out of bounds and touches the running back with the ball with one finger as he speeds by, is the ball down there?
If a player out of bounds gets one finger on the ball as the back runs by, is he down?
If a player out of bounds gets one finger on the ball as the back runs by, is he down?
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:27 am to SlowFlowPro
Just because you touch the ball with 2 hands, doesn’t mean you possess the ball. Yes Brooks touched the ball with both hands, and illegal touch also occurred. It’s clear on replay possession did not occur until after that.
Rule by the book was interpreted correctly.
Rule by the book was interpreted correctly.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:28 am to BigDropper
This
If a player has possession and fumbles then simply touches the ball uncontested with a knee down. The ball is ruled dead. Because it was uncontested the touch was the moment possession was reestablished and downed and the clock is stopped there.
In a contested situation like last night, until someone has reestablished possession (at the discretion of the ref) the ball is live. A player out of bounds touching a live ball on the ground makes it a dead ball. That player should also be penalized for illegal touching, but the original possession is maintained but should have been with a penalty.
I think LSU had possession and was down the moment he grabbed it with both hands with a knee down. That was the call on the field. I saw nothing incontrovertible to overturn it.
Ala-possessed
Ala-fumbled
LSU-possessed(my opinion)
Ala-touched while out of bounds causing LSU to fumble and making the ball dead.
LSU was the last to posses.
LSU ball with Ala penalty for illegal touching.
What happened?
They found a way to reverse a clear fumble recovery.
These rules are open to the refs taking advantage of the specific moment that is a judgement call.
quote:
Big difference, KM originally possessed the ball, fumbled it, then repossessed it.
If a player has possession and fumbles then simply touches the ball uncontested with a knee down. The ball is ruled dead. Because it was uncontested the touch was the moment possession was reestablished and downed and the clock is stopped there.
In a contested situation like last night, until someone has reestablished possession (at the discretion of the ref) the ball is live. A player out of bounds touching a live ball on the ground makes it a dead ball. That player should also be penalized for illegal touching, but the original possession is maintained but should have been with a penalty.
I think LSU had possession and was down the moment he grabbed it with both hands with a knee down. That was the call on the field. I saw nothing incontrovertible to overturn it.
Ala-possessed
Ala-fumbled
LSU-possessed(my opinion)
Ala-touched while out of bounds causing LSU to fumble and making the ball dead.
LSU was the last to posses.
LSU ball with Ala penalty for illegal touching.
What happened?
They found a way to reverse a clear fumble recovery.
These rules are open to the refs taking advantage of the specific moment that is a judgement call.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:29 am to pensacola
quote:
If a defensive player stands with one toe out of bounds and touches the running back with the ball with one finger as he speeds by, is the ball down there?
Not a fumble so not comparable.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:36 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
LSU. This happens all the time. Just because a player rips the ball away from a player who has possession and is down, doesn't mean he gets the ball.
Wrong. It would be bama ball. If my hands are on it and you fall onto the ball, pull it into your chest, and curl up in the fetal position. Who possess the ball? The first person to touch it or the one who possess it?
This is why there's rarely replay for fumble possession. Most fumble replay is only to determine if a player is down prior to fumbling.
Think about how many fumbles you've witnessed where you perceived one team to possess the ball, only to see them opposite team come out of the pulled with the ball? Do the refs ever review that? NO. and you want to know why? Because simply touching the ball with both hands is not possession.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:37 am to burke985
Ball on ground, two hands on ball while ball is on ground. Our payer is on ground. Our ball. Does not matter if other player poked it. Our player is on ground, ball is on ground, two hands on ball, our player is down, our ball
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:38 am to burke985
quote:quote:
any receiver who has by any means gone out of bounds may not catch, or be the first to touch, any pass. Re-establishing himself in bounds makes the pass complete, but his touching of the pass remains illegal.
So why can a receiver who caught a ball in bounds fumbled went out of bounds not have to re establish himself inbounds before being able to obtain possession or even touch ball. This is literally the dumbest rule I think I’ve ever seen with this fumble
You answered your own question, once the receiver catches the ball it is no longer a pass but a reception. The rule you quoted only applies to a pass, once there is a legal reception, the illegal touching rule no longer applies. And even if it did apply once the fumble occurred, the LSU player touched it first.
Unfortunately, it was the correct call.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:39 am to BayouBlitz
What else can determine complete possession?? The ball is moving/spinning and then he puts two hands around it and you can literally see it come to a complete stop. There isn’t a process to it like a catch, you either control the ball or you don’t. I think if something comes to a complete stop with two hands around it, that means he possessed it. At that point, the only way it becomes “not possessed” is when the player out of bounds knocks it out of his hands.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:40 am to FreddieMac
He did have possession. Ball on ground, two hands on ball while the ball is on ground, that’s possession .
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:44 am to BigDropper
quote:
It would be bama ball. If my hands are on it and you fall onto the ball, pull it into your chest, and curl up in the fetal position. Who possess the ball?
2 hands + knee down = player down.
quote:
Think about how many fumbles you've witnessed where you perceived one team to possess the ball, only to see them opposite team come out of the pulled with the ball? Do the refs ever review that? NO. and you want to know why? Because simply touching the ball with both hands is not possession.
Your example is pointless.
Perceiving a player having 2 hands, control, and a knee down doesn't mean it happened. WHEN THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, it's possession.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:45 am to JDB1318
quote:
What else can determine complete possession?? The ball is moving/spinning and then he puts two hands around it and you can literally see it come to a complete stop. There isn’t a process to it like a catch, you either control the ball or you don’t. I think if something comes to a complete stop with two hands around it, that means he possessed it. At that point, the only way it becomes “not possessed” is when the player out of bounds knocks it out of his hands.
Exactly. This isn't a reception, with those rules.
We're almost getting philosophical here. How many milliseconds does the LSU player have to hold the ball with 2 hands while he knee is down to make it possession?
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:45 am to burke985
quote:
2 hands on the ball does not equal possession
quote:
But a couple fingers on ball while laying out of bounds does …..got it the most stupid fricking rule I’ve ever witnessed being enforced.
No. The Alabama player touching it from out of bounds is in no way taking possession of the ball. It’s effectively the same as the ball touching the sideline at that point, because he is out of bounds.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:46 am to burke985
You see the clip of the Packers kick return guy that lays on the ground with his feet out of bounds and touches the ball that was inbounds? The ref threw a flag for kicking out of bounds.
It was explained that the return man was out of bounds and as soon as he touched the ball it too was deemed out of bounds.
Last night the Bama player was out of bounds and as soon as he touched the ball it was deemed out of bounds. If the ball was not possessed at that point it remains so. The question, for me at least is whether or not LSU had secured possession prior to him touching the ball.
It was explained that the return man was out of bounds and as soon as he touched the ball it too was deemed out of bounds.
Last night the Bama player was out of bounds and as soon as he touched the ball it was deemed out of bounds. If the ball was not possessed at that point it remains so. The question, for me at least is whether or not LSU had secured possession prior to him touching the ball.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:47 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:we obviously have different points of view about it.
Perceiving a player having 2 hands, control, and a knee down doesn't mean it happened. WHEN THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, it's possession.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:48 am to BLD
quote:
It’s clear on replay possession did not occur until after that.
No. It’s not clear. He had possession, and the ball was knocked loose AFTER he had the ball by a guy out of bounds.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:50 am to BigDropper
quote:
we obviously have different points of view about it.
No you just have shitty analogies
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:51 am to Y.A. Tittle
Touching the ball with 2 hands is not possession.
How many passes hit a receiver with 2 hands but is not a possession? A lot.
The LSU player didn't clearly possess the ball before the Bama player touched it while out of bounds. Play dead. Correct call. Get. Over. It.
How many passes hit a receiver with 2 hands but is not a possession? A lot.
The LSU player didn't clearly possess the ball before the Bama player touched it while out of bounds. Play dead. Correct call. Get. Over. It.
Posted on 11/6/22 at 7:52 am to Penrod
This is a dumb rule. He should have to recover the ball, get possession of it, for it to be dead. Just touching with your leg or some shite should not matter.
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