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re: Coach O at OM and the mistake that haunts him
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:41 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:41 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
And considering only that experience, a decade ago, despite context or current evidence, would be doing yourself a disservice.
I'm aware
and no one is doing that
but you also cannot ignore it and just write it off as something that happened a decade ago
it happened and it must be accounted for
1
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:42 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
And considering only that experience, a decade ago, despite context or current evidence, would be doing yourself a disservice.
ignoring his previous failure is also a disservice.
it has to factor into the equation somewhere.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:42 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
He has yet to prove that he learned from those mistakes. So why should LSU be his science experiment? Why wouldn't he have to prove himself at some lower level school first? Honestly, not being a dick here but, what point are you trying to argue? That O gets a pass because his team had stiff competition? I truly don't understand what point/excuse you're providing for his poor success at Ole Miss.
CEO doesn't even defend his record at OM. He acknowledges that he was a failure there and claims to have learned from his mistakes.
I'm certainly not defending his record.
My point is that where you compete and against whom is a strong determinant of your record, though certainly not the only factor.
Consider this hypothetical...
Would Saban be the coaching God he is if he had been at Ole Miss from 2000-2004 and Spurrier had left Florida for LSU instead of the NFL?
Maybe he would just be some middle of the pack coach. Program matters.
Btw, I am not saying O should definitely be our coach. But he's in the interview of his career right now. To dismiss him based on the OM record is just as stupid as dismissing Herman based solely on his loss to SMU.
If O wins, give him strong consideration. If he doesn't, Jimbo would be my first choice.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:42 pm to wildtigercat93
quote:
You're just bringing in a random annedotal point into the conversation
I am making a point about ANOTHER point in a conversation.
quote:
The quote isn't saying that EVERY coach that has success on a lower level sustains it on the next level. He's saying that EVERYcoach that has success on the next level had success on a lower level first.
Well, no shite. Jesus Christ, it is simply a comment.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:44 pm to Tiger4Liberty
quote:
To dismiss him based on the OM record is just as stupid as dismissing Herman based solely on his loss to SMU.
what?
no...that is even remotely close to being true
1 is 1 single game
the other is 3 entire seasons and his only HC experience
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:45 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
I guess we have different definitions of sustainability then. I understand your point with chip in the nfl, but he was very successful as a HC in college. Same issue with Saban. Not an NFL type coach.
To be clear, i define sustained success as being consistently top ranked, overall winning HC record, ability to coach your team to compete with opponents at or above your teams level, and bowl wins.
I would say Kelly and Jimbo both fall in to that category. Herman would be on the cusp, but he hasn't had enough time as HC to prove he can sustain it over the long term.
I am curious how you would define sustained success and why jimbo and kelly don't qualify. Every coach has down year(s) of course. We won't find a coach that never had a down year.
To be clear, i define sustained success as being consistently top ranked, overall winning HC record, ability to coach your team to compete with opponents at or above your teams level, and bowl wins.
I would say Kelly and Jimbo both fall in to that category. Herman would be on the cusp, but he hasn't had enough time as HC to prove he can sustain it over the long term.
I am curious how you would define sustained success and why jimbo and kelly don't qualify. Every coach has down year(s) of course. We won't find a coach that never had a down year.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:46 pm to Salmon
I've defended a A LOT on here, but I won't defend his job at OM. He failed and failed big time. The only context I will put on it is that he realizes what he did wrong and was very open about those mistakes. In his two latest coaching stints (yes "interim") he has demonstrated how he has modified his coaching style. Actually, flexibility and willingness to change is a trait some coaches never learn. As for his time here I still say let it play out and see how the season unfolds. Chances are by the end of the season there will be a much greater consensus one way or the other.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:49 pm to Tiger4Liberty
If he wins he should be considered. Don't disagree there. I am saying that even if he wins he still has an overall bad HC resume compared to chip or jimbo. So if one of those guys say yes, even though O won out, you should likely give it to them. Objectively speaking wouldn't you have to go with the guy with the overall better resume and proven success?
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:49 pm to BayouCowboy
Has he proven that he can keep a program running at the top?
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:51 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
It's not about whether or not we hire someone who's a risk. It's about how big of a risk it is. O being a complete failure in his only HC job is more of a risk than coaches who have been to or won a national championship. Everyone has something you can fault them for. Everyone has something you can praise them for. Nobody is saying that O doesn't have qualities, but his past makes him a bigger risk than Chip or Jimbo.
Some of the people lobbying for O have a better argument against an up and coming guy like Herman or Fleck honestly.
Of course previous success is not always guaranteed future success. I would question how successful Miles would be at a program with 3* players and low tier defensive coordinators. But I guarantee you at the end of the year, Miles will get more calls than O.
Some of the people lobbying for O have a better argument against an up and coming guy like Herman or Fleck honestly.
Of course previous success is not always guaranteed future success. I would question how successful Miles would be at a program with 3* players and low tier defensive coordinators. But I guarantee you at the end of the year, Miles will get more calls than O.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:52 pm to mikrit54
quote:
I am making a point about ANOTHER point in a conversation.
I know. It was annedotal and meant nothing.
quote:
It is simply a comment
So is it simply a comment or are you making a point? Are you making an argument or not? Or just trying to run away whenever someone calls out your point for being nonsensical
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:52 pm to Tiger4Liberty
quote:
CEO doesn't even defend his record at OM. He acknowledges that he was a failure there and claims to have learned from his mistakes.
I'm certainly not defending his record.
My point is that where you compete and against whom is a strong determinant of your record, though certainly not the only factor.
if you were thinking about hiring me to build a house for you, and the only previous house I'd ever built was lopsided, leaking roof, and half a wall fell down every time a snail farted, would you hire me based on me saying I know where i screwed up and what i did wrong?
would you trust that because I sanded and repainted a picnic table a couple times that i was now ready to build a mansion?
or would you prefer to see me actually build someone else a house that was actually straight and structurally sound first?
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:52 pm to Salmon
quote:
but you also cannot ignore it and just write it off as something that happened a decade ago
Not saying you should.
You examine why he failed, and investigate if those issues have been resolved.
Would coaching a smaller program check that box? sure.
I'm simply of the opinion coaching in the gauntlet of the SEC West also gives him the opportunity to check that box.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 1:56 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
I'm simply of the opinion coaching in the gauntlet of the SEC West also gives him the opportunity to check that box.
But it doesn't. He didn't build this team. He didn't build this coaching staff. He didn't recruit most of the players on this team. He hasn't coordinated either side of the ball during this. He himself hasn't changed much outside of a couple pregame rituals
He's simply a shot in the arm of a plateuing program that Miles was in, and brought in a sense of excitement and motivation...that's not enough to carry over year to year. We've seen him fail at a program and have never seen him show that his fixed those mistakes in a full time role. Playing pretend coach for a couple months doesn't show me jack shite except that he's good at being an interim coach.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 2:06 pm to adamb2151
quote:
Cutcliffe and Boone had a soured relationship because Cutcliffe wouldnt fire certain assistants. Thats why he was fired. He had the program going in the right direction
So that's why Cut got fired. I never understood why they canned him.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 2:07 pm to wildtigercat93
quote:
But it doesn't. He didn't build this team. He didn't build this coaching staff. He didn't recruit most of the players on this team. He hasn't coordinated either side of the ball during this. He himself hasn't changed much outside of a couple pregame rituals
You haven't been paying attention if this is what you actually think.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 2:10 pm to olemc999
quote:
So that's why Cut got fired. I never understood why they canned him.
That, and they werent thrilled with his effort in recruiting.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 2:10 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
Run it down for me then
Posted on 10/26/16 at 2:11 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
You haven't been paying attention if this is what you actually think
Yea, I would like to hear this as well.
Posted on 10/26/16 at 2:25 pm to wildtigercat93
I typed it out in another thread. The one about letting your OC/DC coach. If you have a 247 sub, those guys as well as a few of the TAF guys who post there have gone into great detail about the structural changes Orgeron has made, and how quickly and efficiently he was able to implement them. It's all out there if you care to read it, I enjoy the back and forth on this board as much as anyone but I'm not gonna spend my whole day typing the same things over and over when neither of us is making the hire.
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