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re: Are American players good enough?
Posted on 1/13/14 at 1:26 pm to hendersonshands
Posted on 1/13/14 at 1:26 pm to hendersonshands
quote:Spot on. Look at Jozy's development from when he went to the Netherlands. Yes, he hasn't had the greatest goal-scoring season at Sunderland this year, but his technical skill is so much better than when he got his first stint at Hull.
Part of the problem is where the players are going. In England managers aren't given time to bring along new players slowly so if you initially fail, you're done. More should go to Holland, Germany and Italy, maybe Spain as well. Before Bradley moved to Roma, he was getting a ton of run at Chievo. Just need to be smarter about where they play and not jumping ship too soon.
IMO, Holland's the perfect place for a lot of our players to go and work on their technical ability while getting games against decent competition.
1
Posted on 1/13/14 at 1:31 pm to Tennessee Jed
Meh.
A lot of our players are instructed that playing time is of the utmost importance. I'm sure many players *could* take a timeshare at a larger club, but don't, just to get on the field.
Hell - Jurgen himself is always saying you won't get called in if you aren't playing for your club (unless you're Brek Shea.)
A lot of our players are instructed that playing time is of the utmost importance. I'm sure many players *could* take a timeshare at a larger club, but don't, just to get on the field.
Hell - Jurgen himself is always saying you won't get called in if you aren't playing for your club (unless you're Brek Shea.)
Posted on 1/13/14 at 1:32 pm to TheZaba
quote:
Holland's the perfect place for a lot of our players to go and work on their technical ability while getting games against decent competition.
One of the most technical players ever for the USMNT was John O'Brein he just couldn't stay healthy. If he stayed healthy you could make a case he was.
Posted on 1/13/14 at 3:28 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Or trained in America, at the very minimum. Players from abroad who grew up here are often not good enough to go back to Europe.
Rossi, Subotic? If they count, they go against the argument.
Posted on 1/13/14 at 4:14 pm to TheIrishFro
Rossi left for Parma when he was 13. I don't count him as a youth product. Subotic might be the one outlier.
Posted on 1/13/14 at 4:28 pm to crazy4lsu
I don't think bias is an issue anymore. I think bias was a huge issue why Donovan was immensely disrespected by Leverkusen and didn't go back to Europe during his prime and signed a nice MLS contract which precluded him from doing anything more than some Everton loans afterwards, but for the current generation, I don't think bias is much of a factor at all.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 10:01 am to Keys Open Doors
It is a flaw in the way Americans develop talent. The focus on team, passing and winning begins as soon as kids get on the pitch.
We lack kids brought up with the basketball mentality of doing something creative and driving to the rim. Until we change the development tract that is producing players we will continue to have this issue.
By the time kids are working with professional coaches (9-11) most of the needed aggressive nature has been coached out of them by parent coaches who don't know what they are doing. .
We lack kids brought up with the basketball mentality of doing something creative and driving to the rim. Until we change the development tract that is producing players we will continue to have this issue.
By the time kids are working with professional coaches (9-11) most of the needed aggressive nature has been coached out of them by parent coaches who don't know what they are doing. .
Posted on 1/14/14 at 11:03 am to crazy4lsu
No we aren't good enough because our best athletes don't usually play soccer. Our top tier athletes are primarily playing football and basketball.
It's similar to why Europeans arent' as good (traditionally) at basketball as americans.
It's similar to why Europeans arent' as good (traditionally) at basketball as americans.
This post was edited on 1/14/14 at 11:04 am
Posted on 1/14/14 at 11:27 am to MRTigerFan
quote:
No we aren't good enough because our best athletes don't usually play soccer. Our top tier athletes are primarily playing football and basketball.
It's similar to why Europeans arent' as good (traditionally) at basketball as americans.
Oh god not this argument again.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 11:27 am to MRTigerFan
Michael Bradley is a fantastic athlete. He's big, strong, not slow by any means, and can run all day. Yet he doesn't posses the elite technical skills to play for Europe's best. Until Americans stop this stupid meme about how our best athletes don't play soccer, we will continually produce sub par players.
Also football and basketball select for a different type of athlete than soccer. Those two sports select for explosive, fast-twitch athletes. Soccer selects for slow-twitch athletes, because the elite stamina required.
Also football and basketball select for a different type of athlete than soccer. Those two sports select for explosive, fast-twitch athletes. Soccer selects for slow-twitch athletes, because the elite stamina required.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 11:54 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Soccer selects for slow-twitch athletes, because the elite stamina required.
I'm going to disagree with you here. Basketball requires a lot of stamina, and you can't tell me that players like Messi and Ronaldo don't have their fair share of fast-twitch.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 12:01 pm to cwil177
I'm speaking in generalities. If you did an analysis of all three sports, I think things would align the way I said, in a general sense. The point being that the best athletes for football and basketball are not necessarily the best athletes for soccer.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 2:02 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Soccer selects for slow-twitch athletes, because the elite stamina required.
Meh, I have teammates who have elite stamina, yet they could burn it with sprinters.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 3:36 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
Meh, I have teammates who have elite stamina, yet they could burn it with sprinters.
Do people not understand when I'm speaking in generalities? Anecdotal evidence does nothing about my point, which no one seems to have a problem with.
At the professional level I think this is the general breakdown, anecdotes and outliers aside. This is not to say that fast-twitch athletes cannot play soccer, but they generally choose other sports.
If we can make the game more widespread, and teach it correctly, we can get those explosive athletes ( though we are already one of the most athletic teams in the world), they can then use their technical abilities to highlight their athletic abilities.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 5:46 pm to cwil177
quote:
My main concern really is Japan. Clearly their development is way ahead of ours as we have failed to produce players like Honda, Kagawer, etc who can succeed at top European sides.
Yeah, I've always thought that Japan would be a good place to look for specific differences in youth training in developing elite technical skills. I'd add Nagatomo to the list of Japanese players. Even if Inter has been a bit down, he's been one of their biggest bright spots.
quote:
I honestly think Bradley could have succeeded at a better than mid table club. The situation at Roma was really, really tough. Bradley isn't the most technical player, but he definitely has his role. When I visited Chievo and saw him play there, he was by far the best player on the pitch.
Yeah, I can understand him moving from Chievo as they're really small. I can also understand him wanting to try his lot at a big club like Roma. However, it was always going to be a tall order since Roma's style--even under various coaches-- probably demands more smooth passing technical midfielders than most.
Having gone to matches and been around a lot of Roma fans, I can't say that bias played any part in Bradley ultimately not cutting it at Roma, even from a standpoint of fan acceptance. Italian fans loved him even if a majority thought he probably wasn't ultimately starter quality for a CL/Scudetto caliber side.
Bradley didn't make it simply because Naingollan and Strootman (not to mention De Rossi) are better.
quote:
he was being paid so little at Roma and TFC offered him such a sweet deal that I can't blame him for going for it.
Roma were paying Bradley pretty decently. His salary was just under $2 million before taxes. There's some confusion about his salary at Roma in American articles I've read since many don't seem to note that Italian salaries are customarily published as after tax take home pay.
However, the point still stands that Toronto gave him a salary that any European club would be crazy match given the availability of similarly talented players.
It is too bad -- from my personal standpoint as a Bradley fan with a lot more interest in European leagues -- that he didn't give it one more go at a mid-table side in Italy or Germany.
This post was edited on 1/14/14 at 6:01 pm
Posted on 1/14/14 at 5:55 pm to wm72
I would have been totally ok with him going back to the Bundesliga.
His after tax salary (or based on what you mentioned it must be after tax) was 800k euros (according to google). Quite the pay bump.
His after tax salary (or based on what you mentioned it must be after tax) was 800k euros (according to google). Quite the pay bump.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 6:11 pm to crazy4lsu
Soccer is just as much anaerobic as it is aerobic. You won't get far without having a significant % of your muscle fibers being fast twitch. Soccer is much more like basketball than running a marathon.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 6:15 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Do we have to admit that American players right now are not good enough? I think we all feel this at times, but we desperately want to be proven wrong.
You really have to call it like you see it. That said, there has to be some reason for the disconnect between our lack of overseas players and the competitiveness of our national team.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 8:21 pm to ohiovol
quote:
the competitiveness of our national team
How competitive are we, really?
I have zero expectations for this World Cup.
Our consensus best player couldn't cut it at Roma. Our best striker is floundering in the EPL.
Our only hope is great goalkeeping, some luck, and poor teamwork from Portugal.
Hard to be too positive right now about this group of players.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 8:29 pm to uway
quote:
How competitive are we, really?
I feel like we can reasonably expect to advance from the group stage of most World Cups. That's pretty competitive. It's not like we're Montserrat, or anything.
quote:
Our consensus best player couldn't cut it at Roma.
Not really that big of a deal. Roma has some pretty serious aspirations. However, I don't know if I'd say that he couldn't cut it, either. He could have stuck around as a squad player, but he has been pretty...adamant about playing time in the past, and money is nice.
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