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re: Are American players good enough?

Posted on 1/14/14 at 9:23 pm to
Posted by thesoccerfanjax
Member since Nov 2013
6128 posts
Posted on 1/14/14 at 9:23 pm to
Seems our guys want to play, not fight for minutes. You can say that speaks to their character and maybe it does, but Bradley isn't exactly a young up and comer anymore, and with the WC a few months away he needs to be playing. Not saying he's old, but let's be honest he's probably past the point in his career where it's worthwhile to be fighting for spots. If he was a few years younger and/or it wasn't a WC year, I would feel differently.

I mean, look at Chicharito, wasting away in what should be the prime of his career. Mexicans take great pride in the fact that he "plays" for MU. Can't help but laugh at that one. He doesn't really play for anyone these days, even when they actually let him on the pitch. I don't want any of our players in that kind of situation, no matter how prestigious the club.
This post was edited on 1/14/14 at 9:24 pm
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
30134 posts
Posted on 1/14/14 at 10:57 pm to
This is all extremely well said and I couldn't agree more.
Posted by StraightCashHomey21
Aberdeen,NC
Member since Jul 2009
126858 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 5:16 am to
quote:

However, the point still stands that Toronto gave him a salary that any European club would be crazy match given the availability of similarly talented players.



that sums it up pretty good
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 1:00 pm to
quote:

I mean, look at Chicharito, wasting away in what should be the prime of his career. Mexicans take great pride in the fact that he "plays" for MU. Can't help but laugh at that one. He doesn't really play for anyone these days, even when they actually let him on the pitch. I don't want any of our players in that kind of situation, no matter how prestigious the club.


Don't be myopic. He's struggled for a while, but he's scored 10 plus league goals the last three seasons playing for a top 5 club in the world. He's a limited player, but he's still better than anything we've ever produced. And he's only beginning to come into his prime. His struggles lately are compounded by the fact he's behind two of the best strikers in the world, and Man U's struggles with Moyes as a whole.

If we had a player like that on a team like that we would all be thrilled, and clamoring that he should be getting more playing time, especially seeing as before this season, he scored 33 goals in 77 games, which isn't a bad record for a striker like Hernandez who is by all means a backup striker for Man U.

ETA: Hernandez had a better minutes per goal average than every other Man U striker in PL and CL comps, as well as a very high chance conversion percentage and shooting accuracy.

LINK
This post was edited on 1/15/14 at 1:06 pm
Posted by PeepleHeppinBidness
Manchester United Fan
Member since Oct 2013
3553 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 2:49 pm to
Good enough to make the World Cup qualifying through CONCACAF. Have a way to go before American players are widely respected on a world stage.
Posted by thesoccerfanjax
Member since Nov 2013
6128 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 3:46 pm to
You totally missed the point. I would never want one of our players in a situation like Chicharito. Some people in this thread are acting like MB is somehow a worse player (in their mind) because he's leaving Roma for TFC. Sure, it sounds better to be able to say he plays his club football for Roma, but that doesn't mean he's not as good as we thought, like some are suggesting. Those people are probably ignorant anyways. Honestly, I would prefer he stay in Italy at another club, but leaving Roma is the right thing to do.
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
30134 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 5:48 pm to
quote:

He's struggled for a while, but he's scored 10 plus league goals the last three seasons playing for a top 5 club in the world. He's a limited player, but he's still better than anything we've ever produced.

I'm not sure that I agree with either of these facts.
Posted by engvol
england
Member since Sep 2009
5435 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 5:56 pm to
Question about grass roots football in America.

IS going to college for soccer still seen as the normal path?
Posted by glassman
Next to the beer taps at Finn's
Member since Oct 2008
118620 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 6:00 pm to
quote:

IS going to college for soccer still seen as the normal path?


Getting the almighty athletic scholarship still rules the day.
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
30134 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 6:01 pm to
I think for most parents, probably so.

For the kids who want to really make it as pros, I'm sure a lot of them have realized that academies offer a better straight shot at that, but then again the MLS draft puts a lot of college players into the pro ranks.

So... both?
Posted by thesoccerfanjax
Member since Nov 2013
6128 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 6:06 pm to
Path to what? 98% college soccer players have no shot at ever being paid to play and they know that. I don't know that college soccer is or ever will be seen as a "path" to anything other than a discounted education.

This talk of elite players taking the non-college route is really less than a decade old, so it hasn't taken full effect (if it ever will).

This post was edited on 1/15/14 at 6:07 pm
Posted by engvol
england
Member since Sep 2009
5435 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 6:07 pm to
I've always thought thats the main thing that holds US Soccer back.

The collegiate system is great for football where players need those extra 3 years to grow and be ready physically for the game, but for soccer you don't need them you are ready to play at 18 and those 3-4 years stunt players growth and you don't get that time back in terms of development. There is not one top player that I can think of that wasn't playing at a high professional level when they are 21.

Good to see if some are realising academies are the way to go though.
Posted by thesoccerfanjax
Member since Nov 2013
6128 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 6:09 pm to
College soccer has never held players back. It can only help the game and the players. Yes, academies are better for the truly elite, but college soccer has a place.
Posted by engvol
england
Member since Sep 2009
5435 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 6:17 pm to
quote:

College soccer has never held players back. It can only help the game and the players. Yes, academies are better for the truly elite, but college soccer has a place.


Yes it does, but like college soccer in the UK you aren't going from there to the pros and tearing it up.
The level just isnt the same as pros.

(unless your name is Joe Lolley)
Posted by thesoccerfanjax
Member since Nov 2013
6128 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 6:21 pm to
The US needs a legitimate pyramid (ie employers) before academies every become a realistic/reasonable option. Academies in the US right now are much more idealistic than realistic. Quite frankly, you'd have to be an idiot to go to an academy in the US over playing D1 college soccer right now. Now if you're truly elite and end up in an academy in Europe then that's different. And to be quite honest, we don't have the coaches right now for academies to be all that effective (see England).
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 8:59 pm to
quote:

You totally missed the point. I would never want one of our players in a situation like Chicharito.



Chicharito isn't wasting away though. He's behind literally two of the best strikers in the world today, and he's younger than each. He's also produced every season he's been at Man U, despite the fact he's usually the third option at striker. I would love for one of our top players to be a 3rd option at striker, depending on the system, on a team the caliber of Man U.

Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 9:04 pm to
quote:

The US needs a legitimate pyramid (ie employers) before academies every become a realistic/reasonable option. Academies in the US right now are much more idealistic than realistic. Quite frankly, you'd have to be an idiot to go to an academy in the US over playing D1 college soccer right now. Now if you're truly elite and end up in an academy in Europe then that's different. And to be quite honest, we don't have the coaches right now for academies to be all that effective (see England).


While you are right about the lack of coaches, I don't think we necessarily need a pyramid for the academy system to work. We would need the federation to take a more active role in development. The French have given us a model, as their FA changed their academy system so that there are finishing schools around the country that train the best players from whatever region they are located in. After the training program players are free to sign with whatever team.

The federation would have to import coaches, for at least the first generation, as well as find suitable facilities and funding for the scholars. It could be like the IMG academy which has produced so many US internationals. But we need more of them.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 9:05 pm to
quote:

I'm not sure that I agree with either of these facts.



We've simply never had a player producing for that caliber of a team in that caliber of a competition.
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
30134 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 9:17 pm to
I'm still convinced Chicharito was partially a grab at the Mexican market. Even at El Tri games you see tons of people wearing his ManU jersey and carrying posters of him... at ManU.

If Jozy was on ManU I'm sure he would have equal numbers. Well, I can't really be sure, but I would take that bet.

I mean come on, the little pea gets ManU quality service. Of course the goals will come. He's a good player and a great poacher, but he doesn't do it for Mexico like he does for ManU. Clint, Jozy, Donovan, etc all produce at the club level and the international level.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 1/15/14 at 9:20 pm to
quote:

College soccer has never held players back. It can only help the game and the players. Yes, academies are better for the truly elite, but college soccer has a place.



The 20 hour a week plus 4 hour a day restrictions between coaches and players puts a real hamper on this sort of reasoning. I honestly don't see how it can help the game. Players of that age bracket in Europe are either training with the first team, and playing weekly games with the reserves, or out on loan gaining valuable experience. So the best American players make their professional debut in the top tier American league at 21 or 22, when most players in Europe make their debut much younger, some of whom become regulars in leagues far better than what the U.S. can offer.

For example, a player like Chuks Aneke of Arsenal already has 78 professional games to his name, and he's only 20. Even a bit part fringe first team player like Ignasi Miquel has 25 first team appearances.

College soccer will continue to exist, but I'm unconvinced that it is the best option for the growth of U.S. talent. I'd rather it not be apart of the system, as it's a drain on the time of both players and coaches, all of whom would be better served in an academy environment.
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