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re: Would you vote for an open atheist for national political office?
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:39 pm to Roger Klarvin
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:39 pm to Roger Klarvin
Absolutely correct.
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Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:40 pm to Bayou
quote:
Christianity is the only religion that teaches man can do nothing to earn or pay his way into heaven.
But many religions through history have had far more nuanced views of Heaven and Hell than those found in Christianity, and dome lack a heaven, hell or both altogether.
Saying Christianity is the only religion with a specific means of salvation is like saying Georgia Tech is the only ACC team to run the triple option. So what?
This post was edited on 12/19/16 at 8:41 pm
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:41 pm to biglego
quote:
Right. That's what I thought. Catholics and Protestants disagree, so the post I responded to was incorrect.
Based on the tone and tenor of his posts, I imagine he considers his Protestant denomination to be the only successor of Jesus and the one true church, in the same way that Muslims believe themselves to be the only true successor of Abraham and the one true religion.
When your world view has been simplified to that point, everything else is quite plainly wrong
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:42 pm to Joshjrn
I mean, if you're going to make a blanket statement about Christianity, at least consider damn Catholic Church. It's sort of significant.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:44 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
It is still considered heresy by the Catholic church
Not really
Catholicism teaches that Jesus Christ alone can save and no works apart from him can earn salvation. They do however teach that men will be known by their fruits and that a saved person MUST necessarily express some fruit of their salvation, because a truly saved person by the nature of being saved cannot be fruitless.
What Catholics believe heretical is the belief that a person can be truly saved and show no evidence of saving faith. Saving faith will ALWAYS produce works in Catholicism. Catholics also believe a saved person can forfeit their salvation.
I'm routinely amazed by how little many Christians know about other Christian denominations.
This post was edited on 12/19/16 at 8:46 pm
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:47 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Not really
Catholicism teaches that Jesus Christ alone can save and no works apart from him can earn salvation. They do however teach that men will be known by their fruits and that a saved person MUST necessarily express some fruit of their salvation, because a truly saved person by the nature of being saved cannot be fruitless.
What Catholics believe heretical is the belief that a person can be truly saved and show no evidence of saving faith. Saving faith will ALWAYS produce works in Catholicism. Catholics also believe a saved person can forfeit their salvation.
I'm routinely amazed by how little many Christians know about other Christian denominations.
You just roughly described mainline Protestant dogma, not Catholic dogma. Unless there has been some major shift since I last seriously studied Catholicism, they are still pounding the "faith without works is dead" mantra.
ETA: you added the middle when I wasn't paying attention. Catholics can absolutely fall out of a state of grace, but you're entirely glazing over the entire area of apologetics covering "justification".
This post was edited on 12/19/16 at 8:50 pm
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:52 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
You just roughly described mainline Protestant dogma, not Catholic dogma.
What I posted is straight from the official catechism of the Catholic Church of which I've read in its entirety.
quote:
they are still pounding the "faith without works is dead" mantra.
Because faith without works isn't true saving faith, as the Bible clearly teaches that saving faith ALWAYS produces works.
Look I don't believe any of it, but the misinformation about Catholicism in southern evangelical circles is mind numbing. Catholicism, for all its heirarchal goofiness, is far more intellectual and nuanced and has done far more for the world than Protestantism/Evangelicals ever will.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:53 pm to Stingray
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:54 pm to Vols&Shaft83
That's an opinion or are we forgetting manifest destiny and the crusades? For fricks sake we just recently legalized gay marriage after decades of Christians refusing to let that happen
Posted on 12/19/16 at 8:56 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
but you're entirely glazing over the entire area of apologetics covering "justification".
Catholics believe salvation is a process, they believe one must always work out their salvation "with fear and trembling" as ones state of grace at the time of death determines their eternal faith. The Bible speaks of Saints who then lost their salvation.
They do not teach that anything but the grace of Jesus and faith in that saves however, only that someone who is saved will continue to produce works by the nature of saving faith.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 9:12 pm to Roger Klarvin
I no longer have a copy of the Catholic catechism, but based on what I'm quickly skimming online, it looks like Benedict kind of threw people into a tizzy in 2008. When I was studying the religion, this emphasis on faith wasn't nearly as dominant. I'm not sure I'm up for it this evening, but I'll take a look at it again at some point 
Posted on 12/19/16 at 9:16 pm to Revelator
Yes.
As an open agnostic, I know that like extreme christians and muslims, atheists inject religion into everything, albeit in the opposite non-religion way.
As an open agnostic, I know that like extreme christians and muslims, atheists inject religion into everything, albeit in the opposite non-religion way.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 5:16 am to biglego
quote:
There is truth in this. I've always thought...if people TRULY believed there was a supreme being watching their every move, would they act the way they do? Would they be so nonchalant about taking the Eucharist? Would they only go to church on some sundays? True believers act like true believers. For western Christians, religion is a cultural aspect, a family or community tradition. And though they won't admit it, that's all it is.
The entire Bible is about Grace. You didn't give this post any relevance to Grace. Christians admit they aren't perfect nor can achieve it. Therein, lies a huge difference. What you are trying to preach is like me trying to teach rocket science.
You do not achieve salvation in Christianity; it is received. This is huge so please try to understand this.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 5:18 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
If the gospel of Jesus as told in the New Testament is true, and someone GENUINELY believes it as surely as they believe in their own existence, there is no logical explanation for doing ANYTHING else apart from spreading that gospel. Everything else is, relatively speaking, meaningless in the light of eternity.
Deep down, in places we suppress and don't talk about in church, at least some small part of all of us suspects it isn't true. Our actions prove as much. If only subconsciously we acknowledge some difference between objective reality and our religion.
If it were any other way faith would not exist then. You are correct.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 5:22 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
But many religions through history have had far more nuanced views of Heaven and Hell than those found in Christianity, and dome lack a heaven, hell or both altogether.
Saying Christianity is the only religion with a specific means of salvation is like saying Georgia Tech is the only ACC team to run the triple option. So what?
Christianity is unlike any religion out there. It is received not achieved.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 5:24 am to Joshjrn
quote:
Based on the tone and tenor of his posts
When you fall to this level you appear as if things aren't going well...Do not mix fact with tone or tenor.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 5:27 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
I'm routinely amazed by how little many Christians know about other Christian denominations.
Those denominations aren't different based on the central premise of Christianity. They all believe salvation come through Jesus. The rest is clutter, really. God don't care what flavor you are as long as you truly, truly believe in Him.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 5:31 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Because faith without works isn't true saving faith, as the Bible clearly teaches that saving faith ALWAYS produces works.
Correct - those works being fruit.
quote:
the misinformation about Catholicism in southern evangelical circles is mind numbing. Catholicism, for all its heirarchal goofiness, is far more intellectual and nuanced and has done far more for the world than Protestantism/Evangelicals ever will.
Intellect is your opinion and, honestly, it means little with the subject of belief. You might try to spin this but you can't.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:21 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Jesus turned water into wine and drank wine at the Last Supper. Not something He would have done if drinking were a sin.
Tell that to the southern baptist convention my friend...but if your point is correct you make my point better than I ever could...Jesus encouraged drinking wine by turning water into wine...yet the non-jesus believers among us would say that drinking was a sin...
quote:
overweight
???
Has more to do with an economy (shift to sedentary jobs) and diet (hyper processed foods) that don't match our physiology. Humans worked the fields for most of recorded history and didn't have long term food surpluses, so our bodies began storing for lean times.
I only weigh 150 so I'm not making excuses for myself.
quote:
So there is no gluttony involved? Portions aren't bigger than they have to be? Gluttony also does not only involve food...take a look inside most Americans garages and you will see a pile of shite they have bought that they simply didn't need or want....
quote:
those people are only pretending to believe because it is convenient
Convenient in what way?
Go to wherever you conduct business today and let everyone know that you are an atheist and then let me know if you still have this question 6 months from now...y'all only pretend to believe and only attend church because people will think bad about you if you don't. You probably enjoy church and would miss it now but the driving factor isn't belief it is the need to belong and to fit in.
quote:
but if a preacher you had been listening to for years suggested that God wanted you to drive an airplane into a building OR you heard a voice inside your own head to do something along those lines would you comply? If so you are a true believer...if not you ain't....simple as that.
This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this board and that's saying a lot. Jesus expressly told His followers NOT to use violence. If a preacher said God wanted us to have a devil's threesome, everyone in the audience would know he was a fake right away. Same if a preacher told us to fly a plane into a building.
So there aren't christian preachers who tell their flocks all sorts of insane shite and the flock buys into it? Snake handling, Wesboro...there is a long list. No, if a baptist preacher suddenly showed up this Sunday morning in Hahira, Georgia and said "come on folks...lets hop in a plane and drive it into the Ga Pacific Building in Atlanta..." the congregation would have no doubt the bastard had lost his mind...but if he built his case over a couple of lifetimes he could convince christians to do some pretty shitty things...like, for example, droning people in the middle east....terrorists and innocents alike....I don't see a huge groundswell of Christians, steeped in non-violence, screaming at the top of their lungs for us to quit killing innocent muslims in the middle east....and other than the one happening to them and the planes in the WTC happening to "us" there isn't a significant difference.....
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:37 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Deep down, in places we suppress and don't talk about in church, at least some small part of all of us suspects it isn't true. Our actions prove as much. If only subconsciously we acknowledge some difference between objective reality and our religion.
I think this is the very definition of faith....and I think it is extremely unhealthy NOT to question faith....anytime a believer tells you they have "proof all around them" of the existence of God they are admitting that they no longer have faith but rather proof which of course they do not have...so they have questioned their faith and found it wanting for truth...that is an agnostic who simply refuses to acknowledge their lack of faith...
"Belief" and "faith" are often used interchangeably but there is a subtle difference...belief is based in opinion or conviction while faith, the deeper and more meaningful of the two, is based in trust...MUCH more difficult for humans to trust than to form an opinion....faith is a beautiful thing....like a child resting peacefully in an automobile hurtling along at 80 MPH because they TRUST that their parents will see to their safety.
One must have faith to be a true believer...otherwise your beliefs are merely convenient opinions....and the beautiful thing about Western Christianity that is lacking in large swaths of Islam, apparently, is that we lack sincere faith in magic and boogeymen and only hold to such non-sense because it is expected of us...we do not base many decisions on such tripe (I know many of you will claim otherwise but your lives tell a much different story...you base decisions on desires, finances and convenience and twist belief to fit the mold). Apparently many in the world of Islam are like the sleeping child in their parents car...they trust in their god and his representation here on earth....and so can ve convinced to drive a plane into a building on his behalf.
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