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re: Would you vote for an open atheist for national political office?

Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:23 pm to
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:23 pm to
quote:

As always, it depends on your view of God and your view of man.


This isn't my view. The Bible is allegedly the word of the Christian god, literal or not.

quote:

If you believe that we are like ants standing on a flower when compared to God


I don't believe either are true, so I'll just ask if this is your belief.
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
76504 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:23 pm to
quote:

why would I want to serve such a being? To avoid hell?


Blame Dante not the bible for hell

And I have never thought of my self as serving God but always searching for his path.
This post was edited on 12/20/16 at 6:25 pm
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:24 pm to
quote:

I'd prefer that he treated those people with respect as well.


That isn't what I asked.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138984 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:25 pm to
quote:

So a child would know their name
Yes.
Even if their "name" was a simple snap of fingers, or grunted sound/gesture. Communication is instinctive among homo sapiens.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:26 pm to
quote:

That isn't what I asked.


I guess it would depend on the degree of his comtempt, which group he held in contempt, and what were his views on everything else?
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:27 pm to
quote:

Blame Dante not the bible for hell


Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven, so this is another untruth.
This post was edited on 12/20/16 at 6:28 pm
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:28 pm to
quote:

I won't argue that it's not fair, but I will say that the implication seems directly at odds with the narrative of Christianity as God as all loving and benevolent.
God is those things but He's more than those things. God is also holy and just. He is also greater than all, even us. To overlook sin entirely would compromise His justice and essentially esteem us more than Himself, which would in a sense be idolatry. That God would not condemn every single human to hell is an evidence of His love and benevolence.

quote:

Because the result is that any human not exposed to the story of Jesus and his offered salvation is condemned to hell through no fault of their own. That seems like a condemnation that only a vindictive and petty god would impose. Alternatively, it would be evidence of a god without the sufficient power to extend his influence to all of his created children.
I put in bold the part I take issue with the most here because it assumes that we do not deserve eternal punishment. Like I said, we are damned already based on Adam's sin. Federalism is a thing and doesn't seem so bad when people benefit from it, but people sure do complain when they don't get the benefits. But even if you put aside the whole "original sin" thing, every person that has lived (aside from Jesus, if you believe the Bible) has sinned against God and thus deserves Hell. No one is "innocent" from God's point of view. Since no one is innocent, how is God cruel or vindictive to seek justice? He doesn't do it with malice.

quote:

Either way, it doesn't square with the claims of Christianity. At best it's self-contradictory and paints god and indifferent to human life. At worst it's malicious.
Not at all. The Bible says that God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. He sentences to death those who break His law and attempt to usurp His rule as King. Justice doesn't require maliciousness, and it doesn't contradict the Bible's claims of God's love. That God should save anyone from the punishment that we all deserve shows God's love clearly. Or so I believe.
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
76504 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:30 pm to
I understand the bibles references but the modern church and its imagery gets a lot from Dante to be clearer.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:30 pm to
quote:

There is zero empirical evidence for the existence of any god
Depends on what you count as evidence. You also seek to prove God through natural means. How can science (which bound by the natural and material) sufficiently measure God, which by His nature is supernatural and immaterial?
Posted by bmy
Nashville
Member since Oct 2007
48203 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:38 pm to
Happily
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:40 pm to
quote:

Even if their "name" was a simple snap of fingers, or grunted sound/gesture.


This is recognition based on our senses, not knowing or understanding.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46863 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:41 pm to
quote:

I made no claim that it proved anything. What I did claim was that it provided an alternative explanation. And given the lack of any other evidence, Occam's Razor leads me to find it to be the most compelling. E.G., you don't need God to explain the feeling of spiritual awe, ergo that sense of spiritual awe doesn't contribute much to the evidence of God.
As I said, people are convinced or compelled to believe things for all sorts of reasons. The standards for burden of proof vary widely from person to person. It all boils down to belief. If God could be proven for certain without a shred of doubt, faith would not be necessary; it would just be knowledge. There is merit to faith because it is hard, and depending on the object of the faith, it can be downright impossible without sufficient compulsion.

quote:

I agree with you. But it concerns me how often people choose to believe and invest in a world view (like Christianity) without any sufficient evidence.
The Christian worldview has a lot going for it, if I may say so myself while acknowledging my bias. There is a lot of good that comes from it and it instills a lot of hope even when days seem very dark. Also, "sufficient" is the key word here. What suffices for one person may not suffice for another based on the kind of evidence a person is looking for.
Posted by Strophie
Member since Apr 2014
438 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:42 pm to
quote:

That God would not condemn every single human to hell is an evidence of His love and benevolence.


He created us. To create us solely to condemn us by default seems malevolent. Why would I want to believe in, let alone worship, a God that takes this course of action?

quote:

I put in bold the part I take issue with the most here because it assumes that we do not deserve eternal punishment. Like I said, we are damned already based on Adam's sin.


Condemning all of humanity because of something their ancient ancestor did is asinine. So my default position as a human is being condemned to hell unless I believe in a God who provides me no tangible (or otherwise) evidence of his existence. A god who gives me a rational brain and intelligence and the ability to think about things critically. And then by using those same faculties, which he consciously created me to have, and reaching the conclusion that he doesn't exist, I solidify my own damnation based on the preexisting condition of being made by him.

Do you see how this makes absolutely zero sense? "God loves me unconditionally and cares about me before I'm ever conceived" and "God condemns me to hell because 'reasons' since I don't believe in him after critically examining the world he put me in and the lack of evidence he provides after he chose to make me, so now I burn in hell for all time" are two scenarios that seem somewhat mutually exclusive. AT BEST, they seem idiotically diametrically opposed.
This post was edited on 12/20/16 at 6:43 pm
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:43 pm to
quote:

I guess it would depend on the degree of his comtempt, which group he held in contempt, and what were his views on everything else?


Is the same true for an Atheist with contempt for Christianity?
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:46 pm to
quote:

Depends on what you count as evidence. You also seek to prove God through natural means. How can science (which bound by the natural and material) sufficiently measure God, which by His nature is supernatural and immaterial?


Faith is the word you're looking for. It's fine if that's what it comes down to, but don't conflate that with evidence.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138984 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:47 pm to
quote:

Atheism is, by it's very definition, a lack of belief.
100% False.

Agnosticism is by its very definition, a lack of belief.

Atheism is absolute belief.
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:49 pm to
quote:

a·the·ism

noun

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.


Posted by Bass Tiger
Member since Oct 2014
55752 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:49 pm to
quote:

It makes a big difference when one side is trying to destroy the country.

A person of true faith would not do what the dims have been trying to do.



^^^^^ This is an important distinction between bleeding heart Progs/Libs and people of faith. People of faith believe it is incumbent on individuals to care for their fellow man and not some behemoth called government. With individuals the person in need gets kindness, encouragement and a example of how to conduct your life....., with government they get a carrot on a string to chase for life.
Posted by Wolfhound45
Member since Nov 2009
127393 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:49 pm to
quote:

Strophie
Man was not created with original sin.

Nice try though.
Posted by Strophie
Member since Apr 2014
438 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:50 pm to
quote:

100% False.


I have no response to you beyond telling you that you are wrong based on the literal definition of the word. Maybe your own definition differs, the definition of atheism is "lack of belief in the existence of gods."

So no, you're wrong.
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