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re: Would you vote for an open atheist for national political office?

Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:50 pm to
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62286 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:50 pm to
quote:

Is the same true for an Atheist with contempt for Christianity?


No, I already stated that. As a Christian,my vote is swayed by my own self interest.
Posted by Strophie
Member since Apr 2014
438 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:51 pm to
quote:

Man was not created with original sin.

Nice try though.


"Man" as in the original version of Man in Adam in the Garden of Eden? Okay. But I personally was created already condemned due to the actions of Adam, yes?
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
47409 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:52 pm to
quote:


This is of course the only logically consistent stance, in as much as one can be logically consistent within the belief system.

The problem, as you alluded to, is following this through to its logical conclusion: Those who never hear the gospel, or those unable to comprehend it, are effectively damned by circumstance. A circumstance God had domain over.

Could God do that? Sure, he's God.
I don't see the problem with this. Damnation by circumstance is no different than salvation by circumstance. The outcome may be less favorable, obviously, but the requirements are the same. This argument comes down to "fairness". Is it fair that people are damned because of what Adam did? I would counter that is it fair that people are saved because of what Christ did?

Even if you throw out the federalist aspect of this, you are still left with the requirements of perfection that all men fall under that no one apart from Christ has ever been able to comply with. All people would essentially condemn themselves even if original sin wasn't something to be concerned about. Not to mention, if Adam was the perfect man, unbound in his reason and ability to choose good over evil and all he had to do was obey one command and he failed, what makes anyone think they, in their current state, would fair any better?

We don't bat an eye when one nation's leader declares war on anther nation for what their representatives do (well, we understand it logically, at least). As goes the leader, so goes the nation. That's the general principle. Yet people find it a very difficult pill to swallow when it comes to their own eternity (for good reason).

quote:

I'd be curious to know how the millions of Christian parents of special needs children would respond however if they knew this to be true.
Many would reject it, as many already do. It's a natural tendency, after all. Most Christians today think that the Biblical principle of federalism that I've tried to adequately explain is absurd because they want to believe that they are in ultimate control of their own destiny and salvation. I understand it, but I don't believe it to be true. These same people would recoil in disgust at the thought that their impaired or handicapped child could possibly die in sin and go to hell. On the other hand, there are many Christians who do believe in this concept and fervently pray for mercy from God on their children, that He would grant even the smallest seed of understanding and trust in Christ for salvation.
Posted by Strophie
Member since Apr 2014
438 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:53 pm to
quote:

People of faith believe it is incumbent on individuals to care for their fellow man and not some behemoth called government.


Nice false dichotomy.
Posted by Wolfhound45
Member since Nov 2009
127593 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:54 pm to
Have you sinned?

And the answer from a scriptural standpoint is Romans 5:12.
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:55 pm to
So, basically, you will only look past someone being an a-hole if they tell you they are a Christian.

I love politics and religion.
Posted by The First Cut
Member since Apr 2012
14817 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:55 pm to
quote:

That's an opinion or are we forgetting manifest destiny and the crusades?


The Roman Catholic Church is not the catholic (universal) Christian Church. When you speak of the Crusades, you speak of the Roman Catholic Church and it's power struggle with the kings of that contemporary period, not the entire Christian faith.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62286 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:56 pm to
quote:

So, basically, you will only look past someone being an a-hole if they tell you they are a Christian.


That's your spin on it.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
47409 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:57 pm to
quote:

A pot isn't a living being
True, but a grasshopper isn't a human, though it is a living being. It comes down to value and worth. Some people value a "priceless" painting or work of art over some people (there are some pretty terrible people in the world, after all). Value is subjective and our value as human beings comes from God, who created us. If He deems us unworthy based on the terms He has set forth, why can't He destroy us? We are still His creation.

quote:

But God would certainly be within his rights to do such a thing. The question is, why would I want to serve such a being? To avoid hell?
If God were God, why wouldn't you want to serve Him because of that alone? He doesn't punish on a whim and He is not capricious, so why think that God is evil because we don't live up to His standards? If God is a holy God (which justifies His need to condemn sinners) then wouldn't that be a good reason to worship and serve Him? What about the love He shows on sinners even though they don't deserve it?
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:57 pm to
quote:

That's your spin on it.


If my assessment isn't accurate, please, feel free to correct me.
Posted by Wolfhound45
Member since Nov 2009
127593 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:59 pm to
quote:

DisplacedBuckeye
Are you a Traditional or Reformed Contrarian?
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
140759 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:59 pm to
quote:

I have no response to you beyond telling you that you are wrong based on the literal definition of the word.
The definition is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Put another way, a theist is one who believes in god(s), Atheist is the antithetical, i.e., one who believes there is no god.

Sorry. The term you are looking for is "agnostic".
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62286 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:59 pm to
quote:

If my assessment isn't accurate, please, feel free to correct me.


Well your definition of someone acting like an a-hole is very broad and open to a wide interpretation. You might call a crack down on Muslim immigrants the act of an a-hole and I would not.
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:00 pm to
I'm a registered Republican in the state of Florida.
Posted by Strophie
Member since Apr 2014
438 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:02 pm to
quote:


Have you sinned?



Yes.

And as a result, the entirety of my argument still holds.

I'm condemned as a result of breaking the arbitrary thresholds of what constitutes sin (like lusting after a woman who's not my wife). And yet it's not possible for me, as a rational critical person, to believe in God based on the those same faculties, which he gave me.

I would love to worship God if he showed me he existed and gave me the ability to believe in him. But since I can't, it's off to hell for me. This despite living a good life and serving others, etc.

Okay.

And this totally ignores the (lack) of logic around why an all loving God would create us to be so fallible, or why he doesn't just chose to forgive us of his own accord, etc.

I know there are Christian answers for these things, but they require a hell of a lot of contorting around logical pitfalls fallacies.
Posted by Wolfhound45
Member since Nov 2009
127593 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:02 pm to
Well since you won't come to me, I am coming to you. My next assignment is in Tampa.

See you next summer.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
47409 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:02 pm to
quote:

This isn't my view. The Bible is allegedly the word of the Christian god, literal or not.
People choose to ignore what the Bible teaches. That can't be helped, I suppose.

quote:

I don't believe either are true, so I'll just ask if this is your belief.
Yes, it is.

I've found that those who think that it's "unfair" for God to judge people for their sins (or the sins of Adam) think that God owes them something, which is to essentially put God and man on even footing if not put man on a pedestal above God. It denies the creator/creature distinctive and puts forth a notion that we are so special and wonderful that we deserve Heaven for merely existing, and being damned though not "deserving" it (based on man's standard and not God's).

Like I said, it's about perspective, and more specifically, how you view man's relationship to God.
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:03 pm to
quote:

Well your definition of someone acting like an a-hole is very broad and open to a wide interpretation.


As is your definition of open contempt.

quote:

You might call a crack down on Muslim immigrants the act of an a-hole and I would not.


That is entirely different from general contempt for Islam.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
140759 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:05 pm to
quote:

but they require a hell of a lot of contorting around logical pitfalls fallacies.
As does atheism
Posted by Bestbank Tiger
Premium Member
Member since Jan 2005
82323 posts
Posted on 12/20/16 at 7:05 pm to
quote:

Because the result is that any human not exposed to the story of Jesus and his offered salvation is condemned to hell through no fault of their own. That seems like a condemnation that only a vindictive and petty god would impose. Alternatively, it would be evidence of a god without the sufficient power to extend his influence to all of his created children. 



Sin is not accounted where there is no law.

Also, the Bible makes multiple references to those who lived before Christ being saved. They couldn't have accepted Him without a DeLorean, but they're still saved.
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