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re: Would you vote for an open atheist for national political office?
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:03 pm to Strophie
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:03 pm to Strophie
quote:The argument doesn't prove or disprove anything at all. It is what it is: an argument and possible explanation of reality based on one belief system.
This is certainly true. I look up at the night sky and sometimes am overwhelmed with a sense of awe; a sense of scope and a sense of being a part of something infinitely more complex and all encompassing than myself. Something much bigger.
But there are strong theories regarding this feeling of "spiritual awe" being resultant of evolutionary causes. And I ascribe to that belief. As a result, there's nothing magical about the sense of wonder humanity, as a collective, feels about the universe or our place in it. It's the result of a rational process.
So this belief in "something bigger than yourself" doesn't provide, in and of itself, anything of value to the argument for Christianity or other religions for me.
I'm not here to prove Christianity is true, though. That's an impossible task because "proof" is a subjective thing. There are obvious truths that many people don't accept and we see it in all aspects of life every day. Religion is no different. Some people require very little to convince them and some people will never be convinced regardless of the evidence.
3
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:07 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
God must be cruel
Anyone with any honesty would agree with this. You can argue "his" motivation, but "he" is certainly cruel if any interpretation is to be believed.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:07 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
And with that, I fully expect the "it's not fair" and "God must be cruel" arguments to commence.
I won't argue that it's not fair, but I will say that the implication seems directly at odds with the narrative of Christianity as God as all loving and benevolent.
Because the result is that any human not exposed to the story of Jesus and his offered salvation is condemned to hell through no fault of their own. That seems like a condemnation that only a vindictive and petty god would impose. Alternatively, it would be evidence of a god without the sufficient power to extend his influence to all of his created children.
Either way, it doesn't square with the claims of Christianity. At best it's self-contradictory and paints god and indifferent to human life. At worst it's malicious.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:08 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
regardless of the evidence
There is zero empirical evidence for the existence of any god.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:08 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I'm not here to prove Christianity is true, though. That's an impossible task because "proof" is a subjective thing. There are obvious truths that many people don't accept and we see it in all aspects of life every day. Religion is no different. Some people require very little to convince them and some people will never be convinced regardless of the evidence.
Same here. I'm also a very bad christian trying to get better everyday. Maybe one day confronted with voting for a atheist God will show me wisdom on the matter
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:11 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The argument doesn't prove or disprove anything at all. It is what it is: an argument and possible explanation of reality based on one belief system.
I made no claim that it proved anything. What I did claim was that it provided an alternative explanation. And given the lack of any other evidence, Occam's Razor leads me to find it to be the most compelling. E.G., you don't need God to explain the feeling of spiritual awe, ergo that sense of spiritual awe doesn't contribute much to the evidence of God.
quote:
Some people require very little to convince them and some people will never be convinced regardless of the evidence.
I agree with you. But it concerns me how often people choose to believe and invest in a world view (like Christianity) without any sufficient evidence.
This post was edited on 12/20/16 at 6:16 pm
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:11 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
When a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the preached Word of God, that person moves from one federal head to the other. That person is then judged not by his own works (or that of Adam) but by the works of Christ, and thus is deemed holy in spite of his sins. No one automatically gets saved just because they have a mental or physical impairment.
This is of course the only logically consistent stance, in as much as one can be logically consistent within the belief system.
The problem, as you alluded to, is following this through to its logical conclusion: Those who never hear the gospel, or those unable to comprehend it, are effectively damned by circumstance. A circumstance God had domain over.
Could God do that? Sure, he's God. I'd be curious to know how the millions of Christian parents of special needs children would respond however if they knew this to be true.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:12 pm to goatmilker
quote:
Same here. I'm also a very bad christian trying to get better everyday. Maybe one day confronted with voting for a atheist God will show me wisdom on the matter
The Bible talks about God placing those who are in authority in office,and as has been pointed out by an earlier poster, God can use non believers to accomplish his will.
With that said, I would not vote for a avowed atheist if he held open contempt for Christianity.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:13 pm to Roger Klarvin
If you never hear the gospel you cannot sin against or reject the God of the gospels.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:15 pm to Revelator
quote:
With that said, I would not vote for a avowed atheist if he held open contempt for Christianity.
Would you vote for a Christian who held open contempt for Judaism, Islam, or atheism?
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:16 pm to goatmilker
quote:
If you never hear the gospel you cannot sin against or reject the God of the gospels.
so if we completely eradicated Christianity from this planet, everyone would, by default, be saved?
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:16 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:As always, it depends on your view of God and your view of man. If you believe that man is equal to or greater than God in esteem, then of course it would be cruel for God to judge mankind so harshly.
Anyone with any honesty would agree with this. You can argue "his" motivation, but "he" is certainly cruel if any interpretation is to be believed.
If you believe that we are like ants standing on a flower when compared to God, then it's a lot easier to see things from God's point of view. If He is the all-powerful and holy God of the universe and cannot even be in the presence of sin, then it makes sense that He should be able to destroy that which He created when we are so tainted and stained by sin. If God owes us nothing as His lowly creation, how is it cruel to destroy us? Would I be cruel to finish creating a pot or painting a picture and then toss it in the trash?
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:17 pm to Strophie
Agreed, it isn't about "fairness", a largely meaningless arbitrary term. It's simply contradictory to the supposed nature of God.
It's more of an internal contradiction.
It's more of an internal contradiction.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:17 pm to goatmilker
quote:
If you never hear the gospel you cannot sin against or reject the God of the gospels.
You and the other poster seem to have a massive gulf of a difference in interpretation of what seems like a pretty damn important issue in Christianity, given that the outcome impacts the immortal souls a huge number of human beings.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:18 pm to goatmilker
quote:
If you never hear the gospel you cannot sin against or reject the God of the gospels.
The Bible disagrees with you.
Romans 1:20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:18 pm to goatmilker
quote:
If you never hear the gospel you cannot sin against or reject the God of the gospels.
The Bible indicates all men are born fallen and tainted with sin.
But regardless, if your post is true sending Jesus was a mistake. Billions are in hell now because they've been exposed to the truth.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:19 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Would you vote for a Christian who held open contempt for Judaism, Islam, or atheism?
I'd prefer that he treated those people with respect as well.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:21 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
f God owes us nothing as His lowly creation, how is it cruel to destroy us? Would I be cruel to finish creating a pot or painting a picture and then toss it in the trash?
A pot isn't a living being
But God would certainly be within his rights to do such a thing. The question is, why would I want to serve such a being? To avoid hell?
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
so if we completely eradicated Christianity from this planet, everyone would, by default, be saved?
Don't think so but neither do I think we would be punished. As I posted earlier to Roger there has been thousands of papers, sermons and councils on this very topic with lots of different ideas. Heck I'm not against the idea of reincarnation cause I don't pretend to know how the afterlife works. Everything is possible in my universe and that universe was created by God. Prove that it wasn't.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 6:23 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
If He is the all-powerful and holy God of the universe and cannot even be in the presence of sin, then it makes sense that He should be able to destroy that which He created when we are so tainted and stained by sin.
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