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re: Why does the cake baker allow gay couples to buy his premade cakes?
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:16 am to Dizz
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:16 am to Dizz
quote:
Talking about who you are going to marry is a regularly discussed aspect of someones personal life.
Well in this case you'd have a clear decision to make:
1. Don't talk about your same sex partner and get the cake you want.
2. Talk about your same sex partner and don't get the cake you want. If you then decide to file suit, hooray for you, but you're not going to get the cake for your wedding because you couldn't shut your mouth.
0
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:17 am to GeauxxxTigers23
Pretty sure this is actually a 1st amendment issue and I was responding to someone who said don't advertise your personal life when buying a cake.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:17 am to Jay Quest
quote:
I believe the bakery owners are on record as sayin they would sell the gay couple any cake in the store and they could then decorate it as the choose.
I also read that the cake that was requested didn't have any messaging or anything that differentiates it from cakes made for straight couples.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:19 am to jorconalx
quote:
You cannot be this fricking stupid, can you? He didn't want to make them a cake celebrating their gay marriage. He offered to sell them any other generic cake in his shop.
In fact, I bet dollars to donuts that if the gay couple would have simple ordered a cake exactly as they wanted, but without the two groomsmen as cake toppers, they would have gotten their cake. This isn't your gay couple next door or the gay guy at work... I guarantee one of those guys was seeking out a Christian bakery (looked for the fish on the door) with every intent of making headlines.
This absolutely is a discrimination case... but it's against Christians, not gays.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:19 am to SUB
quote:
I also read that the cake that was requested didn't have any messaging or anything that differentiates it from cakes made for straight couples.
If it's a wedding cake then I suppose most would look, more or less, similar.
It comes down, as I understand it, to the baker participating in an event they do not abide with.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:21 am to SUB
quote:
He's already baked cakes celebrating gay marriage if he baked them under the premise that gay couples could buy them.
Why do gays need to make a grand announcement of "we are gay and need a cake"? Why not walk in buy a cake and leave if a cake is already made?
How many guys walk into a cake store and say "hey, I fricked around on my wife, I need a cake? The cake baker doesn't need to know that. Just buy the damn cake and walk out.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:21 am to SUB
This column explains it pretty nicely:
LINK
What we are dealing with, in part, is a question of what is "speech" (i.e., constitutionally protected expression) and what is not. On one end of the spectrum, the clerk at a Time Saver can't refuse to sell a six-pack to a gay couple if they are taking the beers to toast a gay wedding. No constitutionally protected expression is ringing up the sale. At some point, though, we are in the realm of protected expression and custom-designing, baking, and especially decorating a cake may get you there. A fascinating case that is being poorly reported.
LINK
What we are dealing with, in part, is a question of what is "speech" (i.e., constitutionally protected expression) and what is not. On one end of the spectrum, the clerk at a Time Saver can't refuse to sell a six-pack to a gay couple if they are taking the beers to toast a gay wedding. No constitutionally protected expression is ringing up the sale. At some point, though, we are in the realm of protected expression and custom-designing, baking, and especially decorating a cake may get you there. A fascinating case that is being poorly reported.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:24 am to Jay Quest
quote:
If it's a wedding cake then I suppose most would look, more or less, similar.
Doesn't matter. If they ask the baker to deliver the generic cake to their gay wedding, I believe he has a right to decline on the basis of his religious beliefs.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:24 am to SUB
quote:
This is what I don't get...He makes cakes ahead of time that can be bought for any type of couple, gay or straight. But he refuses to create one when requested by a gay couple. Why does he care so much about his "speech" when being requested to make a cake by a gay couple but doesn't care about it when he's making a cake that could be potentially bought by a gay couple? On one hand, he's willfully making cakes to be bought by anyone, and on the other, is unwilling to make one for gay couples.
Why are you against allowing a businessman the right to run his own business as he sees fit?
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:25 am to Jay Quest
quote:
It comes down, as I understand it, to the baker participating in an event they do not abide with.
And my argument is that he has already willfully participated in these events by making cakes to be purchased in store by anyone. He draws a line in the sand only if a gay couple requests a custom cake, but not if a gay couple already likes one of his premade cakes that he customized himself. If it's against his morals to make cakes for gay weddings, then it doesn't make sense that he willfully makes cakes that can be sold in the store to gay couples.
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 9:26 am
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:25 am to SUB
quote:
He's already baked cakes celebrating gay marriage if he baked them under the premise that gay couples could buy them
You obviously did not watch the interview where he offered them a generic cake. He did not want to sell them or make them a wedding cake.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:26 am to Revelator
quote:
Why are you against allowing a businessman the right to run his own business as he sees fit?
Why can't you read?
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:26 am to SUB
They tried to have him make a penis shaped cake with ejaculate coming out and he was a Christian
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:26 am to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
we are in the realm of protected expression and custom-designing, baking, and especially decorating a cake may get you there.
A portrait artist wouldn't be able to turn away a black person because he didn't want to use his artistic expression to paint a black person.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:27 am to jorconalx
quote:
He's already baked cakes celebrating gay marriage if he baked them under the premise that gay couples could buy them
Semantics. A person can use any cake at a wedding and call it a "wedding cake."
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:27 am to Dizz
quote:
Talking about who you are going to marry is a regularly discussed aspect of someones personal life.
Indeed, who doesn’t share their personal life with complete strangers
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 9:28 am
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:27 am to SUB
Because he is not participating in an act against his religion. Homosexuals celebrating a birthday with a premade cake or a purpose made cake is not a moral matter. He should provide a universal product to all.
Many on the left see the cake at the wedding as just a cake. But a wedding cake like the rings is a unique participant in a ceremony with strong religious overtones for the religious.
When a cake is just a cake, I agree that all should be served. But no one should be forced to do something against his religion. This is just another form of conscientious objectors.
Many on the left see the cake at the wedding as just a cake. But a wedding cake like the rings is a unique participant in a ceremony with strong religious overtones for the religious.
When a cake is just a cake, I agree that all should be served. But no one should be forced to do something against his religion. This is just another form of conscientious objectors.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:30 am to SUB
quote:
And my argument is that he has already willfully participated in these events by making cakes to be purchased in store by anyone
I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. Does a gun shop owner participate in a murder committed with a product he sold?
The baker sold the cakes and the purchasers may then use those cake in any ceremony they choose. The baker does not have to be aware of how the cakes are being used.
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 9:31 am
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:31 am to PuddinPopPharmacist
quote:
Indeed, who doesn’t share their personal life with complete strangers
It wasn't like they went to buy snow tires and told the technician oh by the way we are gay and will be leaving the reception with these tires. When buying a wedding a cake it is normal for the wedding to be discussed which would likely include who you are marrying.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 9:34 am to Jay Quest
quote:
I don't think they have an issue with selling to gays. They simply don't wish to make a cake celebrating a gay wedding.
That's how I understand the issue. Perhaps there is more.
I believe that sums it up.
My understanding is that the pre-made cakes that he has baked are simply desserts that he has made with the intention of it being eaten by someone. Who purchases it is outside of his control.
The baker's problem is that he does not wish to proactively put effort into a cake which he knows will be used to celebrate something that he does not believe in or condone.
A similar scenario would be a KKK member eating "incognito" at a black-owned restaurant. Black restaurant owners are damn sure that racists have eaten at their establishments. And there's really nothing they can do about it if they don't make a show of it.
But have a KKK member walk into a black-owned restaurant and request that the restaurant cater their next rally. I would support them fully in their refusal to do so.
That's the difference.
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