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re: We, the people of the United States

Posted on 5/15/25 at 1:18 pm to
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
37562 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 1:18 pm to
You first.
Posted by Ricardo
Member since Sep 2016
6488 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 1:25 pm to
This is a false dichotomy.

quote:

If we apply a separate set of standards/laws to different people we cannot convict/try them by our laws either.

Then no one will do business with us, there will be no tourism, no citizens will be able to visit other countries…we will basically become a North Korea.

It is like everyone has forgotten what really made this country great.


Borders are important in defining a nation. Without enforcement of those borders, we lose our sovereignty.

No one really knows how many illegal aliens there are in the US. There was an estimate of 11 million for years. There's really no telling. It could be 20 million or more.

I don't know about you, but I consider that an invasion. It's preposterous to think otherwise. I'm not inclined to treat foreign invaders like welcome guests. Simply because they are NOT welcome. If foreign nations see that as a problem, then they can frick off.
Posted by VoxDawg
Glory, Glory
Member since Sep 2012
77654 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 1:31 pm to
quote:

If we apply a separate set of standards/laws to different people we cannot convict/try them by our laws either.

Then no one will do business with us, there will be no tourism, no citizens will be able to visit other countries…we will basically become a North Korea.


It is like everyone has forgotten what really made this country great.

Posted by bayoudude
Member since Dec 2007
25907 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 1:34 pm to
quote:

If we apply a separate set of standards/laws to different people we cannot convict/try them by our laws either.


Wrong. When you visit/enter another country you must abide by their laws but you are not awarded the rights and privileges of their citizens.
Posted by MizzouBS
Missouri
Member since Dec 2014
6884 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 1:57 pm to
I’m not taking the side of todays non-citizens, but the preamble is document that has been fluid and continues to evolve.

In 1790 there were about 4 million people and 700,000 slaves in the census. In the the 1790 census a lot of the people were non-citizens. In 1790 the part of the preamble that you referenced covered the non-citizens. In 1802 they changed the required time to become a US citizen from 14 years to 5 years. The minimum time is still 5 years
This post was edited on 5/15/25 at 2:01 pm
Posted by TenWheelsForJesus
Member since Jan 2018
11363 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 2:47 pm to
quote:

"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."

Does all of that apply only to citizens?


Do you really want to pretend you don't know who the "three fifths of all other Persons" are?

quote:

Is "citizen" even defined in the Constitution?


Is "person" even defined in the Constitution? Or did maybe our Founders expect people to have common sense?
Posted by ThuperThumpin
Member since Dec 2013
9372 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 2:50 pm to
quote:

How can one argue that anything following should apply to someone who is not a citizen "of the United States"?


Well there are plenty of cases that have been argued successfully to the contrary.

Here is link. LINK ...feel free to look at the footnotes that link to cases where some rights and protections (particularly due process) were extended to aliens whether illegal or not.
Posted by ThuperThumpin
Member since Dec 2013
9372 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 2:52 pm to
quote:

illegals and foreigners don not have any rights in this country. They do not have free speech nor can they buy a firearm. Why is that so hard to understand?


Because it isnt true.
Posted by Harry Boutte
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2024
3996 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 3:38 pm to
quote:

Do you really want to pretend you don't know who the "three fifths of all other Persons" are?

Do you really want to pretend that I wasn't replying directly to this question...?
quote:

We, the people of the United States...How can one argue that anything following should apply to someone who is not a citizen "of the United States"?

Doesn't part of what I quoted refer to individuals other than citizens of the United States?

Why does everyone seem to have so much trouble putting replies in context of the original post?

The OP asked how anything following the Preamble could be considered applying to someone who isn't a citizen. Article I, Sec. 2, paragraph 3 does just that - applies to individuals who aren't citizens of the US.

To put the answer simply: Apportionment applies to those who aren't citizens of the US. That's how one can argue that something following the preamble can apply to someone who isn't a citizen of the US.

So you can take your stinkbait and make a gumbo, Im going to drink beer.
Posted by back9Tiger
Island Coconut Salesman
Member since Nov 2005
17960 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 3:44 pm to
quote:

It is like everyone has forgotten what really made this country great.


Which no longer works. So you keep beating your head against the wall knowing it doesn't solve anything?

Posted by Stonehenge
Wakulla Springs
Member since Dec 2014
2680 posts
Posted on 5/15/25 at 4:56 pm to
They don’t care as long as everyone here is white
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