re: United Methodist Church special session this week

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Pharaoh hardened Pahraoh's heart. God allowed it to happen.

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It's interesting that we are specifically told that God is doing it, though.

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And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. - Ex. 4:21

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, - Ex. 7:3

But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses. - Ex. 9:12

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, - Ex. 10:1

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go. - Ex. 10:20

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. - Ex. 10:27

Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land. - Ex. 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.” And they did so. - Ex. 14:4

And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the people of Israel while the people of Israel were going out defiantly. - Ex. 14:8

And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. - Ex. 14:17

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However you want to read into those verses, it is clear that God had purposefully kept Pharaoh from relenting and giving in to let Israel go. God was an active participant in that process and we are told why: God wanted Pharaoh's heart to be hardened so that He may show His glory through the signs and wonders and by destroying him and his army. And that's exactly what Paul says in Romans 9.

What Paul was saying was that the natural man is blinded by his sinful nature and incapable of turning to Christ. This in borne out in many other verses where we are told that we can't understand or believe the things of God (such as salvation through Christ) unless we are born again and have the Holy Spirit regenerating us.

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The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Cor. 2:14

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44 (BTW, the Greek word for "draw" is like a drag net used for catching fish.)

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” - John 6:65 (if everyone was "granted" by the Father, this statement by Christ wouldn't make sense)

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Rom. 8:7-8

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” - John 3:3

but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. - John 10:26-28 (Jesus says that His people will respond to the call while those who are not his people will not. He doesn't say unbelievers are not His sheep because they reject Him, but that they reject Him because they are not His people)

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And that doesn't even speak of the many passages of us being "dead" in our sins and needing to be made alive in Christ. That's not exactly an act that a person can do for themselves.

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John 3:16:

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As I explained previously, the context of this verse was Nicodemus admitting to Jesus that no one could do those miracles unless God was with him. Jesus responded that no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again by the (Holy) Spirit. And yes, whoever--anyone and everyone--who believes in Christ will have eternal life, but only those who have been born again can believe. John 3:16 doesn't say that everyone has the ability to believe. In fact it doesn't talk about ability at all. It simply says that those who do believe will have eternal life. The context, though, talks about ability: only those born again by the Holy Spirit can believe and see the kingdom of God.

So going back to Romans, we are told that some people (like Pharaoh) are created for destruction while God saves His elect by giving regenerating and drawing them by His Spirit, granting them faith by His grace, and upholding them as Christ's special prize for His obedience so that He will lose none of His sheep. That's why God gets all the glory: He gives life to the dead and calls them to Himself and we respond by faith with our new eyes and ears.

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The Church that was the early Church. That is, the Catholic Church.

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There is literally no evidence of this.

I was raised Presbyterian and we had a big split in our church when the National organization voted to allow same sex marriage. A good portion of our congregation left and our church has spent the last few years recovering from it.

When I go home to visit my parents I still go to that church but I am no longer Presbyterian as the entire leadership structure of the church has gone super leftwing (like so many groups these days ) and is really off putting to me.

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This is just something we can agree to disagree on. It's why there are Baptists and Presbyterians. Neither belief will keep us out of heaven and when we get there, we won't care who was right

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Well that we can agree on. In the end, all that matters is where our hope and trust lies. If it's with Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, then nothing else ultimately matters.

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The PCUSA lost 187 churches and 95,000 members last year while the PCA added 68 and 19,000. The EPC is conservative but they allow the local church to decide on whether they ordain women or not. Its growing as well. Presbyterianism is actually trending the right way.

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Yep. New EPC member here from SBC upbringing. Presbyterianism doesn't shy away from real answers to difficult questions.

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FooManChoo - are you PCA or Reformed Baptist?

I feel like if you believe in paedobaptism, you and I could ghost write for each other on theological issues.

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While I'd rather not disclose the specific denomination (I try to avoid identifying details these days), I'll say that I belong to a theologically conservative Presbyterian one (as opposed to the PCUSA), so yes, I do believe in paedobaptism.

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This special conference is a reminder to all you Protestants out there to consider joining the Church founded by Christ. The Church that was the early Church. That is, the Catholic Church.

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That is the Eastern Orthodox church...

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If you read church history with an open mind, you’ll se that it’s the rational thing to do. I was Southern Baptist until I started wondering how the Church operated before the Bible was written and how the Bible was assembled. (Who wrote the table of contents?)

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Reading church history certainly is important.

Foo
Does this look accurate?
Calvinist believe Jesus died for only the predestined and that God predestined some for hell? Pretty cut and dry- but doesn't this negate evangelical aspects?

Lutherans believe Jesus died for all. God predestined some for heaven but not for hell. It's our fault if we go to hell and it's Jesus credit if we go to heaven but God wants all to be saved. Essentially a paradox for our thinking.

Thanks. I enjoy your contributions

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I've read about this and I was floored when I first learned this. Aren't the Presbyterians from Scotland? Who-da thunk that SCOTSMEN would turn Left?

It's hard to believe.

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Scotland has gone downhill a lot since the Covenanters, but it sounds like the other poster's denomination might be the Presbyterian Church of the United States of America (PCUSA), which is a very liberalized Presbyterian denomination. There are still many other Presbyterian denominations that are on the conservative side of theology, like the PCA, OPC, RPCNA, and ARP, among others.

It generally takes a while for a Presbyterian denomination to change one way or another because of the various checks and balances in place to prevent error from creeping in, but as evidenced by the PCUSA, it's very possible. We always have to be on guard that the truth is upheld in our local bodies.