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re: The Law by Frédéric Bastiat
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:54 am to 4cubbies
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:54 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Toddlers have a concept of possession. Possession isn’t perpetual though. Ownership is a made up concept
Maybe, but pretty much every higher lifeform recognizes and fights for what they deem is theirs
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:56 am to 4cubbies
The law is meant to serve lawyers. If you have a case coming up the only constant is that lawyers will be paid.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:57 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
SlowFlowPro
Why are you arguing with your alter?
Posted on 6/22/26 at 10:59 am to Gifman
quote:
Why are you arguing with your alter?
4cubbies is not my alter.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:08 am to 4cubbies
Being intellectual is a bit of a stretch for you.. I mean you seem to have some capabilities, but an analogy is, some guys throw an easy 95 mph fastball while others are max effort to get there.
You appear to be the latter and that's not sustainable.
You appear to be the latter and that's not sustainable.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:11 am to BTROleMisser
quote:
4Chubbs fancies herself an intellectual...
lol I should have scrolled further before I made my post.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:13 am to Robin Masters
quote:
Possession is not ownership and vice versa.
Ownership is perpetual possession.
That’s the social construct/made up part.
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 11:14 am
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:16 am to UtahCajun
quote:
Maybe, but pretty much every higher lifeform recognizes and fights for what they deem is theirs
Right but that generally stems from ego, not some natural right. Especially in modern times.
People in our society are not fighting for survival. They are arguing over stuff. We don’t leave food and water in wills and estates.
Edit I can see how an argument can be made that the things left in wills could be traded for food and water, but that’s really not what happens.
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 11:17 am
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:19 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Power begat laws begat religion begat rights
The order of this seems off to me.
Force begat power begat governance begat rights.
I think religion is separate.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:19 am to 4cubbies
quote:
I think religion is separate.
Over time, Sumer didn't
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:21 am to SlowFlowPro
I don’t know enough about that civilization to make any connections.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:28 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Society learned pretty early if you combined the threat/power of the state with threat/power of religion is was much more effective in ruling over people.
This is really religion as a form of government though. I can see how religion can be viewed as a type of government, because it tends to contain rules to live by but they are not imposed through threat of force (here at least).
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:30 am to 4cubbies
quote:
What came first: laws or rights?
Under American law, rights came first, as they were endowed by the Creator. Just read the COTUS. It establishes a government, grants it powers, and then places limits on those powers for the purpose of protecting rights that the citizens already possess. That is why you don’t actually have constitutional rights. You have constitutional protections. Your rights are God-given.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:36 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Ownership is perpetual possession.
Hardly
An owner can lend, lease or bestow onto someone else who would then posses.
The concept of ownership would have been first articulated when the use of a name came into practice.
“MY name is Grok!”
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:38 am to 4cubbies
quote:
This is really religion as a form of government though. I
Religion is only a reinforcement within the structure of government, in that system. The same as the threat of taxing or jail/death. It's just another institutional arm of the government.
Modern people REE at this discussion b/c they think of their own religion but that's the wrong framing. None of our religions today existed at that time, so this has no overlap with any religion today. Hopefully its easier to conceptualize without the knee-jerk defense of ones own religion, with that framing. I'm sure you can think of plenty of examples of groups/states where a false religion/philosophy was used in the same reinforcement method.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:38 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Where, then, does the right to self-defense enter that chain?
Power begat laws begat religion begat rights
Human survival presupposes agency. Agency gives rise to reason, and reason is man’s fundamental tool for survival. In a state of nature, man possesses a basic right to survive; and if survival requires reason, it follows that he must also possess the right to protect his capacity to reason.
From this, it follows further that the conditions necessary to preserve that capacity (life, autonomy, and freedom from coercion) are themselves fundamental, a priori rights.
Thus the sequence is better understood as:
survival -> reason -> rights -> laws.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:43 am to LSUnKaty
quote:
Where, then, does the right to self-defense enter that chain?
That entirely depends on what you think creates that right. *ETA: or if it even is a "right"
This is where you get into the fundamental problem of natural rights.
This post was edited on 6/22/26 at 11:45 am
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:47 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Religion is only a reinforcement within the structure of government, in that system
Seems to me that the more appropriate comparison is that government is a form of religion.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:53 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Ownership is perpetual possession.
That’s the social construct/made up part.
You come into my house and try to take any of my possessions and you will lose all your rights.
Posted on 6/22/26 at 11:55 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Well yeah. Toddlers have a concept of possession. Possession isn’t perpetual though. Ownership is a made up concept.
Yet, you're quoting The Law?
Plunder Violates Ownership
“When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it-w/o his consent & w/o compensation, & whether by force or by fraud-to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed.”
What is Plunder?
"That a man may live & satisfy his wants by seizing & consuming the products of the labor of others. This is the origin of plunder."
These concepts aren't made up. You're wrong. They're real. But why don't people like you don't like that. And why? Because “The proper purpose of the law is to use the power of its collective force to stop this fatal tendency to plunder instead of to work.”
But that isn't what the law does any longer. “As soon as the plundered classes gain political power, they establish a system of reprisals against other classes. They do not abolish legal plunder.”
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